Starting 11 and subs.

[pankaye]

Saw this on Facebook and thought it could stimulate some debate.


an U15 game where the home team only had 10 players. The away team showed good sportsmanship and only played with 10 despite having available subs. Hypothetically if I had to send off a player from the away team and the manager wanted to bring one of his subs on so they could continue playing with 10 instead of 9, would this would be allowed?


Will it be different in an adult game without rolling subs, where they are supposed to name have team sheets with the starting players and subs identified.


For whats its worth i dont think the law addresses this situation directly or provides a neat answer. Discuss

 

[Russell Jones]

The Away team is entitled to have their full complement of 11 players on the FOP at any point up until the sending off. Effectively it is the same type of situation as where a team is temporarily a player down because of injury treatment taking place off the FOP. Likewise, they are entitled to have 10 players on the FOP after the sending off has occurred.

Where team sheets are involved, I'd recommend the Away team name a full starting eleven but simply commence the game with one of those 11 off the FOP.

 

[callmemyref]

Saw this on Facebook and thought it could stimulate some debate.


an U15 game where the home team only had 10 players. The away team showed good sportsmanship and only played with 10 despite having available subs. Hypothetically if I had to send off a player from the away team and the manager wanted to bring one of his subs on so they could continue playing with 10 instead of 9, would this would be allowed?


Will it be different in an adult game without rolling subs, where they are supposed to name have team sheets with the starting players and subs identified.


For whats its worth i dont think the law addresses this situation directly or provides a neat answer. Discuss

I think this law can be used -
If the competition rules state that all players and substitutes must be named
before kick-off and a team starts a match with fewer than eleven players,
only the players and substitutes named on the team list may take part in the
match upon their arrival.

So yes, the team can play with 10 players, and either subs or player who decided not to play in the beginning can enter with your permission after his equipment is checked.

 

[one]

Technically this very much depends on the comp rules. Does it require (starting) players and substitutes the be listed. And it depends on if the team list 10 or 11 starters and the rest as substitutes.

If must be listed and they have 10 starters listed then a new player can't just come on after a send off.
If the player X is listed as starter and staying off, he is basically a player temporarily off the field of play and treated as such.

If they are not required to be listed, then you need to get clarity from coach as to if they have 10 starters, or if 11 with one off the field. Identify that player if 11 and explain the reason for wanting to know.

The reason is you need to consider a case when you send off someone from the bench. If he is a substitute and they had 11 starters, then they can keep their option of having 11 players on the field. If it's a player temp off the filed (one of the listed starters), then they can't have the extra player back on.

In case of limited substitutes (and non returning subs) you also need to be aware of who comes on later and if it should count as a substitute. You may also have a case when a player can never play because he was substituted after kick off without ever being on the filed. As you can see this can get very complex.

Disclaimer: this is partly on my interpretation of lotg

 

[PinnerPaul]

Technically this very much depends on the comp rules. Does it require (starting) players and substitutes the be listed. And it depends on if the team list 10 or 11 starters and the rest as substitutes.

If must be listed and they have 10 starters listed then a new player can't just come on after a send off.
If the player X is listed as starter and staying off, he is basically a player temporarily off the field of play and treated as such.

If they are not required to be listed, then you need to get clarity from coach as to if they have 10 starters, or if 11 with one off the field. Identify that player if 11 and explain the reason for wanting to know.

The reason is you need to consider a case when you send off someone from the bench. If he is a substitute and they had 11 starters, then they can keep their option of having 11 players on the field. If it's a player temp off the filed (one of the listed starters), then they can't have the extra player back on.

In case of limited substitutes (and non returning subs) you also need to be aware of who comes on later and if it should count as a substitute. You may also have a case when a player can never play because he was substituted after kick off without ever being on the filed. As you can see this can get very complex.

Disclaimer: this is partly on my interpretation of lotg

Had this recently on here - ALL subs MUST be listed - referee 'informed' - as per LOTG, its NOT a competition rule requirement, its a Law requirement.

 

[one]

Had this recently on here - ALL subs MUST be listed - referee 'informed' - as per LOTG, its NOT a competition rule requirement, its a Law requirement.

I must have missed it. Can you quote the law?

 

[JamesL]

I must have missed it. Can you quote the law?

3. Substitution procedure
The names of the substitutes must be given to the referee before the start
of the match. Any substitute not named by this time may not take part in the
match.

 

[JamesL]

For me this raises questions around integrity of competition.
I think we can use the lotg and the comp rules to find a solution that's legal but I think this would be at least a report to the league.
I know there are circumstances that might lead to a team only having ten players but that's through circumstances of the match rather than a conscious decision.

 

[one]

3. Substitution procedure
The names of the substitutes must be given to the referee before the start
of the match. Any substitute not named by this time may not take part in the
match.

Fair enough.... However this contradicts law 3.1 "If the competition rules state that all players and substitutes must be named before kick-off..." Which means it is possible for them not to be named if not stated in comp rules.

 

[Quarryref]

Fair enough.... However this contradicts law 3.1 "If the competition rules state that all players and substitutes must be named before kick-off..." Which means it is possible for them not to be named if not stated in comp rules.

'All players' rather than 'and substitutes' is the part of the sentence that stops it from being contradictory. However, the wording is not helpful.

 

[JamesL]

Fair enough.... However this contradicts law 3.1 "If the competition rules state that all players and substitutes must be named before kick-off..." Which means it is possible for them not to be named if not stated in comp rules.

Hmm depends how you read it, I guess.
It can also be read as:

Substitutes must be, by law, as part of the substitution procedure.

Comp rules can enforce players to have to be named as well as substitutes, before kick off, to be able to take part

. 1 is the number of players.
.3 is sub procedure so they are easily independent of each other although when read side by side they seem contradictory.

 

[one]

'All players' rather than 'and substitutes' is the part of the sentence that stops it from being contradictory. However, the wording is not helpful.

I think this is clutching at straws to justify no contradiction. It's resonably clear here that the intent and the meaning of this sentence is naming players and naming substitutes is up to comp rules.

 

[GraemeS]

Fair enough.... However this contradicts law 3.1 "If the competition rules state that all players and substitutes must be named before kick-off..." Which means it is possible for them not to be named if not stated in comp rules.

I was the victim of falling for this last time, see here: https://refchat.co.uk/threads/fourth-official-help.17665/page-2

 

[PinnerPaul]

I think this is clutching at straws to justify no contradiction. It's resonably clear here that the intent and the meaning of this sentence is naming players and naming substitutes is up to comp rules.

Welcome to the World Straw Clutching Championships!

IF what you say is true there would be no need to mention it in the Substitution Procedure section.

 

[Quarryref]

I think it is badly worded, but I read the intent as (in plain English and abusing the term teamsheet)

Teamsheets are not compulsory
If teamsheets are in use, you have to be named to play
If teamsheets are not in use, the substitutes still need to be named before KO

 

[one]

Welcome to the World Straw Clutching Championships!

IF what you say is true there would be no need to mention it in the Substitution Procedure section.

And if what you say is true then there is no need to mention to add "substitutes" in the quote from law 3.1. hence the reference to contradiction.

 

[Quarryref]

And if what you say is true then there is no need to mention to add "substitutes" in the quote from law 3.1. hence the reference to contradiction.

You are right 'and substitutes' is unnecessary, but it doesn't change the intent. cf what I called 'not helpful wording'

 

[one]

I think it is badly worded, but I read the intent as (in plain English and abusing the term teamsheet)

Teamsheets are not compulsory
If teamsheets are in use, you have to be named to play
If teamsheets are not in use, the substitutes still need to be named before KO

In other words you read it as you don't need to name the players (those who start) but you need to name the substitutes. I refuse to accept IFAB would deliberately make it this confusing and inconsistent. But hey it's ifab, you never know.

 

[GraemeS]

And if what you say is true then there is no need to mention to add "substitutes" in the quote from law 3.1. hence the reference to contradiction.

You're making the exact same mistake I did, which is noting the "if" in law 3.1 but missing the "and". To parse it correctly, you both need to consider that the 3.1 clause is specifically about players who are late and take law 3.3 as gospel as well.

Substitutes must be named (as per law 3.3), but as per law 3.1, the competition rules may a) require them to specifically be named as either a player or a sub and b) also require starting players to be named if they haven't arrived in time for KO. I'm not saying it couldn't be clearer, but if you consider both sub-sections as a whole, the overall intent is at least possible to work out.

Without 3.1 allowing for competition rule to require pre-match naming, you could potentially start a match with 10, have someone turn up and try to join and not be required to have asked for their name pre-match because they were just the missing starting player and not a named sub.

 

[Quarryref]

In other words you read it as you don't need to name the players (those who start) but you need to name the substitutes. I refuse to accept IFAB would deliberately make it this confusing and inconsistent. But hey it's ifab, you never know.

Correct - and where I am this is certainly how it works in practice for youth leagues that don't use teamsheets