A&H

Sin Bins - are you finding they help?

BreakingBrad

BreakingBrad

New Member
Level 7 Referee
I'm a middle aged Level 7 referee with little/no interest in promotion and thankfully no need for the money. Just doing it for fitness and to be helpful to local youth clubs that need refs.

Am confident my knowledge of the laws is excellent and my positioning is generally good (thus my decisions are at least credible even if not always right obviously).

However I find dealing with dissent exceptionally difficult as I'm a quiet non-confrontational person; reprimanding gobby teenagers is way out of my comfort zone.

Personally I find the sin bins make my life much harder not easier; issuing a simple yellow and taking a name (which I obviously do regularly for reckless fouls etc.) is far less stressful than doing this AND having to demonstrably send them off temporarily. Unsurprisingly when dissent levels are high my stress levels are already raised.

Unfortunately unless I gain more confidence doing it (haven't done so yet) then regrettably I may just pack it in. Any advice very welcome....
 
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BreakingBrad said:
I'm a middle aged Level 7 referee with little/no interest in promotion and thankfully no need for the money. Just doing it for fitness and to be helpful to local youth clubs that need refs.

Am confident my knowledge of the laws is excellent and my positioning is generally good (thus my decisions are at least credible even if not always right obviously).

However I find dealing with dissent exceptionally difficult as I'm a quiet non-confrontational person; reprimanding gobby teenagers is way out of my comfort zone.

Personally I find the sin bins make my life much harder not easier; issuing a simple yellow and taking a name (which I obviously do regularly for reckless fouls etc.) is far less stressful than doing this AND having to demonstrably send them off temporarily. Unsurprisingly when dissent levels are high my stress levels are already raised.

Unfortunately unless I gain more confidence doing it (haven't done so yet) then regrettably I may just pack it in. Any advice very welcome....
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Normally when you bin the 1st player 90% of the time they all shut up.

You need to sin bin for dissent or your time as a referee will be short.

If you find this stressful maybe reffing just isn't for you.

After your 1st sin bin it gets easier.
 
I'm going to offer an opposing view to above.

If you find this stressful, it's just a challenge to overcome, refereeing *can* be for everyone, we just have to help ourselves get to that stage.

Personally I opposed SinBins massively at the start, however the more and more I've used to them, I've come to terms with their benefits and actually started to like them!

It's a bite the bullet situation - you've just got to jump in and do it in your next game where you think you would caution someone for dissent if there was no SinBin. It may lead to a temporary rise in grief, but it'll help over time, even if you don't think it does.

Do that again, and again... and again. Eventually it will become a bit like booking for reckless tackles!

What about it exactly stresses you?
 
The stress simply comes from wishing to avoid confrontation (especially with teens who are hardly renowned for their mature understanding of rights and wrongs).

I genuinely would have no issue just blowing my whistle and issuing a simple card but for me at least the sin bin is not at all helpful. In addition I'd argue that whilst all reasons for cards are subjective, dissent is especially so - I personally would expect a sin bin to raise a game's temperature not lower it though accept FA's claim that it works.

Unfortunately I end up either trying to explain decisions (not easy when game still going on) or worse just mutter something under my breath and count down the minutes til FT.

Good news is that like many things in life 80% of games go well and I get compliments but 20% are really miserable always due to dissent.
 
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The key thing is to set them up for that sin bin. That might be publicly warning someone that moan about a decision that any more and they'll be in the sin bin, or sending someone into it so that no one else can complain if they end up there. What you are really looking for is a situation that no one can complain about being given a sin bin caution as you've made it very clear that is coming.
 
Kent Ref said:
Normally when you bin the 1st player 90% of the time they all shut up.

You need to sin bin for dissent or your time as a referee will be short.

If you find this stressful maybe reffing just isn't for you.

After your 1st sin bin it gets easier.
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I will straight up disagree with your first line - unless the first comes very late in the game, I find dissent cautions often come in pairs. Players think that when you send the first player for dissent, that's you making a show of punishing dissent. It isn't until the second one happens that they realise you've set the bar at that point and intend to do so consistently.

I'll also broadly agree with the OP's point - of course sin bins are more faff than just giving a card and moving on. And as someone who also refereed pre-sin bin, I don't feel like they've really added much benefit in terms of scaring people away from dissent - yes people don't want their teammate on the sidelines for 10 minutes, but they also don't want their gobby defenders on an unnecessary caution with attackers running at them. It's much of a muchness really - and I fully buy in to the theory that "dissent is getting better" because some referees don't bother submitting sin bins and/or are using C1 AA where they should really be using C2 + Sin Bin.

But having said all that, this bit stands out:
BreakingBrad said:
The stress simply comes from wishing to avoid confrontation (especially with teens who are hardly renowned for their mature understanding of rights and wrongs).
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Not only is this a key skill for a referee (and as another naturally quiet person, a skill that I've developed and used in day-to-day life as a result of refereeing), avoiding confrontation on a football pitch is going to actively make your life harder in the long run. Not everything a lay-person might call dissent is actually "dissent" that requires a sin bin in law - but you need to be sensitive to the fact that players will be pushing your boundaries, and if you fail to push back, it's only going to get worse.

Try to avoid letting low level dissent go - have some stock phrases along the lines of "less of that please player" or "I've heard what you're saying, now move on" or whatever sound more natural in your voice to make it clear that you've registered the low-level stuff. And escalate quicker than feels natural to a formal telling off with/without the captain as @RustyRef suggests and you might actually find that the sin bin-level dissent happens less, which means you have to deal with that faff less. And if it does happen, you'll find that teammates will blame the gobby player at least as much as you if they've been clearly warned in advance.
 
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Sin Bins raise the stakes for players and referees alike
Dealing with Dissent is a core skill. Sin Bins make it an 'advanced proficiency'. It's challenging to set up and time correctly. Act too quickly and you'll lose respect, leave it to late and you've already lost respect. Get it wrong in any way and you're likely looking at further misconduct. Paradoxically, it's inexperienced referees who have to master this whilst our senior colleagues have the easier task of a straight forward C2
No doubt whatsoever, Sin Bins are routinely palmed off as AAA and C4, in itself giving the FA the kudos they want to portray that dissent in the game has reduced. Either use Sin Bins at every level, or get rid. Alas, I don't want the former to happen and I don't think the latter is on the cards either
 
Thanks for very helpful replies so far.

An additional point I'd make is that when I remind coaches pre-match that sin bins are in use for dissent (not that I've used them yet!), I would say only a small minority seem to be aware that they're a) mandatory in all grassroots football, and b) only apply to dissent. I assume therefore that players are even less aware, which just adds further to the challenge if one often presumably gets a blank stare when pointing a player to the sin bin.

Admittedly I'm only ~25 games into my refereeing 'career' but I get the impression there's a communication problem around the whole sin bin issue. Indeed it wasn't even mentioned on my course taken in mid-2023 (I already had to accept a reprimand from my county FA for recording a dissent YC and not using the sin bin having mistakenly been under the impression it was at my discretion - unsurprisingly neither coach had any idea I'd made an error).
 
BreakingBrad said:
Thanks for very helpful replies so far.

An additional point I'd make is that when I remind coaches pre-match that sin bins are in use for dissent (not that I've used them yet!), I would say only a small minority seem to be aware that they're a) mandatory in all grassroots football, and b) only apply to dissent. I assume therefore that players are even less aware, which just adds further to the challenge if one often presumably gets a blank stare when pointing a player to the sin bin.

Admittedly I'm only ~25 games into my refereeing 'career' but I get the impression there's a communication problem around the whole sin bin issue. Indeed it wasn't even mentioned on my course taken in mid-2023 (I already had to accept a reprimand from my county FA for recording a dissent YC and not using the sin bin having mistakenly been under the impression it was at my discretion - unsurprisingly neither coach had any idea I'd made an error).
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It should have been mentioned on your course, but purely to show/remind attendees what is required.
As you will be new to many coaches, one strategy which works is to tell them you deal firmly with dissent, i. e. will sin bin if needed, and tell them to let that fact be known to whichever of their players are likely to show dissent - "You know your players, so you know which to warn"
 
Weirdly, I think it was fairly well presented when it was initially introduced - the presentation I went to had managers and players there (I know this because one of them tried to argue with the presenter!) and was sold to us as mandatory by the league in question. And given how byzantine and complex some of the interactions can be, it was relatively well explained.

But that was a number of years ago now, lots of managers and players currently active would have been in youth football or not involved at all, and probably wouldn't remember much from that long ago even if they were. And I've certainly not been offered a sin bin refresher in either county I've refereed in since then, so it's no surprise to me that some people have simply not had this training.
 
I like the sin bin a lot.

You can use it for extremely low level, by warning the player, then warning the captain. When I warn the captain it is usually along the lines of next player to argue at me like that directly is on a sin bin. Gives me wiggle room on what player gets it.

Then I can sin bin the problem.

I think being a quiet referee who avoids confrontation shouldn't be a problem for you. As you will probably only being using the sin bin when you are forced into confrontation. So you can use that as your marker.

Regarding moaning over decisions I've been running a few lines for level 3&4s and they all give a quick explanation on the field to a player about a decision and then explain that they will discuss it in the dressing room at half time. Buys you thinking time and allows you space.

Back to the sin bin. Use it, it works. But disengage after you issue it. Don't stand around listening to the grumbles and moans, just name, number, raise card and point to the side, give a quick "you called me an idiot over and over" then run off. Don't listen to them mumble you are an idiot, and don't listen in to them telling their team mates that refs sin binned me cause he's an idiot.

Just disengage. If someone follows you 20 yards to continue moaning, it is an easy sell.
 
When advice is to speak to the captain, do you try to do this whilst the game is going on or do you delay a restart to do it?
 
I'm a big fan of letting a referee manage the nuances and individuality of every particular match, and dare I say, this attitude is actively encouraged at the high echelons of the senior game. "Empathy for the game", I think is the phrase I've heard used? Having such a rigid/mandatory policy for sinbins at grassroots level, I feel, doesn't help, and there's undoubtedly an increase in C1 - AA cautions as a result (rightly or wrongly).

As a relatively newer referee, I have mixed feelings about sin bins. When used at the right time, they can have a fantastic effect on a game, and I have used them plenty of time to great effect. That said, I totally agree with what Big Cat said above:

Big Cat said:
Act too quickly and you'll lose respect, leave it to late and you've already lost respect. Get it wrong in any way and you're likely looking at further misconduct.
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The really annoying thing for me is how IFAB and/or The FA have over-complicated the whole dissent process, to the point we now have to carry a matrix card onto the FOP with us, and players (potentially) receiving three cautions in a match before being dismissed.

As an example, before the law change, if a player committed a C1 - FT, followed by a C2 - Dissent = Red

Now... a player can commit the above offences (in that order), and after 10 mins in the sinbin can return to the field of play (unless I am massively mistaken?) That's totally counter-productive. If you want to "stamp down" on an offence, you don't cheapen it.

A sin bin should be 'worth' the same as every other caution - with the added jeopardy of 10 mins in the bin.
 
BreakingBrad said:
When advice is to speak to the captain, do you try to do this whilst the game is going on or do you delay a restart to do it?
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Delay a restart. There's arguably no provision in law to stop play for discipline unless you're going to issue a card - I've stopped play before to send someone to the sin bin, but for anything less, save it for the next stoppage.
 
In general there's less confrontation from sin-binning than a normal card.
The ire of the players will generally be focused on the offending player not the referee.
 
That is......an extremely blanket statement. Let's try to stay realistic when describing how "wonderful" sin bins are.

If I've had time to set it up off the back of minor disagreement, warn the captain and then further dissent is clear to everyone on the pitch, sure, it's usually seen as at least partly their fault. But then I'd argue a well-applied old-fashioned standard dissent caution would have at least some of the same effect too?

If I've given a disputed penalty and then double-down by trying to put someone in the sin bin for their disagreement....then no, I don't think players tend to particularly appreciate it. In those case I'd much rather have the standard card option available to me.
 
Completely agree, had this exact scenario at the weekend....team losing 2-1, striker through on goal, goes down under challenge in area but I conclude not careless and no foul (satisfied I got it right)....striker goes mental....am confident a sin bin at that point would have resulted in total loss of control especially with teammates and coaches similarly riled.
 
I find 99% of the time it helps me, although that is different for everyone. I do find it particularly challenging to remember the sanction required for multiple sin bins for same player, or those 3 card scenarios also. Causes some issues.
 
BreakingBrad said:
Completely agree, had this exact scenario at the weekend....team losing 2-1, striker through on goal, goes down under challenge in area but I conclude not careless and no foul (satisfied I got it right)....striker goes mental....am confident a sin bin at that point would have resulted in total loss of control especially with teammates and coaches similarly riled.
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Did the attacker deserve a sin bin?
 
I think you're getting overly anxious about the confrontational part of things. Fact is, when refereeing teenagers, you are going to have confrontations. For some of them, it is a badge of honour to receive a booking or a sin bin. Even a sending off. It is only when they start to mature and realise the effect on their team that they start to change and that comes down to parenting, coaching and the right culture in that team/club. By you avoiding sinbins, you are also making it harder for the next referee who will almost certainly get grief for using the sinbin in the correct way.

I would suggest to try to change your mindset and don't look at it as a confrontation, it's just like every other law of the game that you are enforcing, you are are there to enforce them. The player chooses to show dissent, it isn't an accident. Unless they have certain neuro issues which means they can't control their emotions.

Remember also, the player does not get a fine for a sinbin but they do for the other bookings so sometimes you are doing them a favour by sinbinning them.

What would help you also perhaps, is doing some lines. When you see other referees using the sinbin and you then hear the conversations on the sidelines, the first thing yo uwill hear is the coach or parent saying, 'what did you say'. That will be followed by, 'well you should keep your mouth shut' Followed seconds later by,'how long left in the sinbin ref?' That will be repeated on the minute every minute until you allow them back on.

Finally, I would say at least half of the time maybe more, when the player comes back on, they do at some point apologise to the ref even when passing about their comments. That feels really good and helps you with control.

Stick with it, best of luck, it's good that you are seeking advice on here.
 
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