An old chestnut this one, I know, but it's relevant for me at the moment because I'm on the Level 6-5 assessment scheme. Assessors are clear. With club or neutral assistants, the referee should be positioned in the vicinity of the edge of the penalty area with a clear view of the players and the assistant. This is fine until the ball decides to cross the goal line by a couple of millimeters and your club assistant hasn't got a clue. So I, over the last couple of seasons, have been creeping forwards until I now position myself about 8 meters out. On Saturday, this enabled me to see a defender stretch his leg back into the goal and kick it out. With confidence I could see that the ball had to have gone into the goal and I awarded it. Cue loud protests from the club assistant (a sub for the defending team) who accused me of disrespecting him by not asking him to make the call. Of course, he was also "doing the course" at the moment. I told him that at the start of the game I had instructed him to give ball in and out of play and offside and that was it. Nothing else. But for me the bigger issue is that with club assistants, the referee needs to be closer to the goal-line than he or she would normally be with neutral assistants. I wonder if my assessor next Sunday will agree or should I simply bite the bullet, stand on the edge of the area and pray loudly that the ball doesn't go near the goal line!
Positioning for corners
- Thread starter Simon Haydon
- Start date
richard ramjane
RefChat Addict
i like that , i do that not at every corner, but every so often.
it was on here that i read about varying your position while still keeping the AR in view. it also helps me get a better view when the players occupy different positions, especially when they are bunched around the post nearest the AR. Unlike you though ive not had a goal line incident to deal with as yet so i cant attest to its success regarding that ... although it does make absolute sense.
i like it as its a position you have a choice in to keep an eye on your CARs, as opposed to say, being deep enough to keep an eye on them for offside calls, when on occasion that long ball upfield leaves you a little stranded.
it was on here that i read about varying your position while still keeping the AR in view. it also helps me get a better view when the players occupy different positions, especially when they are bunched around the post nearest the AR. Unlike you though ive not had a goal line incident to deal with as yet so i cant attest to its success regarding that ... although it does make absolute sense.
i like it as its a position you have a choice in to keep an eye on your CARs, as opposed to say, being deep enough to keep an eye on them for offside calls, when on occasion that long ball upfield leaves you a little stranded.
Jacob Walukiewicz
Active Member
When I'm doing juniors you rarely see the ball go very deep unless maybe at U16, so I generally stand at the front post with CARs no matter where they are. I just think if you are stood in a position where only the CAR (that probably isn't paying attention) can see say a handball. You have to figure out what the corners are going to be like in my opinion and position based on that. No use relying on the CAR.
being pedantic but a goal is a ball in / out of play situation!
when I don't have ARs I tend to stand in a similar position to the one you describe, either beyond the front or back posts giving good views of the whole area whilst being closer to the goal line to give credible decisions.
I'll not stay there however so if I'm at the near post and the corner goes far post (or vice versa) I'll move round and out the area so I'll get a better view of the aerial challenge as these are more likely to cause you issues than a goal / no goal decision.
when I don't have ARs I tend to stand in a similar position to the one you describe, either beyond the front or back posts giving good views of the whole area whilst being closer to the goal line to give credible decisions.
I'll not stay there however so if I'm at the near post and the corner goes far post (or vice versa) I'll move round and out the area so I'll get a better view of the aerial challenge as these are more likely to cause you issues than a goal / no goal decision.
I'm not a fan of standing on the edge of the area when you are on your own. You (hopefully) aren't going to allow a CAR to give a goal / no goal decision, so my view is you need to be closer to the goal line. After all, what is the most game changing decision you might have to give at a corner - for me it is a goal or no goal decision.
A few years ago the FA had a slide pack for the assessing scheme to show where people could stand at various phases in play, and the one for corners supported the referee being in a corridor stretching from the outside of both goal posts to 5 yards or so outside of the penalty area. So observers really shouldn't pick up a referee whether he chooses to stand by the goal line or outside the area, but he certainly does need to change positions and not stand in the same place every time.
A few years ago the FA had a slide pack for the assessing scheme to show where people could stand at various phases in play, and the one for corners supported the referee being in a corridor stretching from the outside of both goal posts to 5 yards or so outside of the penalty area. So observers really shouldn't pick up a referee whether he chooses to stand by the goal line or outside the area, but he certainly does need to change positions and not stand in the same place every time.
NAR I go edge of the area nice.
However I ALWAYS take up a position on the goal line with CARs. No CAR is giving a goal/no goal in one of my games. I have never ever been told by an observer that is not the right thing to do and have seemingly earned an extra mark for being in said position for goal / no goal decisions
I suppose it depends on the referee as I am capable of making it to the other end of the field pretty sharpish but I can't see how an observer could call you out on positioning youself on the goal line.
However I ALWAYS take up a position on the goal line with CARs. No CAR is giving a goal/no goal in one of my games. I have never ever been told by an observer that is not the right thing to do and have seemingly earned an extra mark for being in said position for goal / no goal decisions
I suppose it depends on the referee as I am capable of making it to the other end of the field pretty sharpish but I can't see how an observer could call you out on positioning youself on the goal line.
What's wrong with the centre circle. If it's good enough for the old more experience referees, it is good enough for you........
Observer's view - we expect you to take up a position to watch the majority of incidents. Without credible assistants, you need to be closer to the goal line for ball in/out decisions. But if they are heavily out swinging corners, then edge of the PA would be suitable; balls swinging in under the bar, we would expect you to be closer to the dropping zone.
Observer's view - we expect you to take up a position to watch the majority of incidents. Without credible assistants, you need to be closer to the goal line for ball in/out decisions. But if they are heavily out swinging corners, then edge of the PA would be suitable; balls swinging in under the bar, we would expect you to be closer to the dropping zone.
I've definitely noticed a variety of opinions from various assessors, but the "keep changing position" method seems to be the one most often suggested.
Although I used to always take the side opposite to the CAR, I've recently begun to essentially ignore their presence and pick a side at random (at least early on before I've identified anyone that needs watching). And I'll vary how deep into the box I go as well, at least when on the opposite side to the kick. I'm uncomfortable with the idea of the ball coming over my head from behind me (I figure I should be much more worried about what's going on in the PA than watching the kicker, but don't want to ruin a corner by inadvertently blocking it!), so I never go deeper than the penalty spot when I'm on the same side as the kicker.
Going to the line is an interesting idea (have done it once or twice), but although I agree that goal line decisions are important it strikes me as being about the worst possible position to control any pushing or pulling, plus the poor position it leaves you in if the defending team breaks (I'm far from the fastest person on any pitch). If you start from level with the penalty spot, a few big steps goalwards will put you in a position to judge the goal line with a pretty high% of accuracy - while also being a great position to judge fouls from and get moving if the ball is cleared. All my opinions of course - I've definitely been told to get on the line by an assessor.
Although I used to always take the side opposite to the CAR, I've recently begun to essentially ignore their presence and pick a side at random (at least early on before I've identified anyone that needs watching). And I'll vary how deep into the box I go as well, at least when on the opposite side to the kick. I'm uncomfortable with the idea of the ball coming over my head from behind me (I figure I should be much more worried about what's going on in the PA than watching the kicker, but don't want to ruin a corner by inadvertently blocking it!), so I never go deeper than the penalty spot when I'm on the same side as the kicker.
Going to the line is an interesting idea (have done it once or twice), but although I agree that goal line decisions are important it strikes me as being about the worst possible position to control any pushing or pulling, plus the poor position it leaves you in if the defending team breaks (I'm far from the fastest person on any pitch). If you start from level with the penalty spot, a few big steps goalwards will put you in a position to judge the goal line with a pretty high% of accuracy - while also being a great position to judge fouls from and get moving if the ball is cleared. All my opinions of course - I've definitely been told to get on the line by an assessor.
I don't care where you stand as long as you move once the ball is played. If you miss something because of your start position, find yourself disadvantaged because of it or because you didn't move, then it will be mentioned in your report.
Likewise if you have a reason for your start position (and I'll listen if you explain it to me), move when the ball is played and spot something as a result, then that will also be mentioned.
I am a fan of customer and practice but I adore positive outcomes. If it works for you and you get a good call out of it, then stand wherever you want.
Likewise if you have a reason for your start position (and I'll listen if you explain it to me), move when the ball is played and spot something as a result, then that will also be mentioned.
I am a fan of customer and practice but I adore positive outcomes. If it works for you and you get a good call out of it, then stand wherever you want.
CapnBloodbeard
RefChat Addict
At a CK, a CAR is as good as no AR for me. I'm not going to trust them with ball in/out, so I'll position just like I have no AR at all.
Which in these cases, is always on the goal line, around the edge of the GA, on the same side as the ball.
Positioning is about weighing up what's more likely to happen versus what's more important and deciding where you need to be to balance those.
What decisions might you have to make at a CK?
- penalty kick. I'd argue that edge of the PA or goal line are as good as each other - they both have equal chance of spotting something you might miss from the other position.
- ball swerving out/in from the kick. Only the GL gives you a chance of spotting this
- offside. Unless it's one right in the corner, you probably have a better chance on the GL given it will be close to the GL
- DHB by defender on the post. Fair chance of your view being blocked outside the PA, probably better chance of spotting it on the GL
- Ball in/out of goal. Most critical decision, and you can only make this on the GL.
What other situations may arise?
- ball crosses to far side of goal and remains in contest. This is probably the worst case scenario because you may be unsighted, and it may be difficult to move into a better position
- Ball is cleared out for a fast counter. Most of the time when this happens you won't have a critical decision to make. Usually the ball will get held up in the midfield giving you enough time to catch up, the ball is intercepted and kicked out, the ball is intercepted for another attack, or there's a foul so clear you can see it from the next suburb. While there's a reasonable chance of the ball being cleared and you being behind play, the chances of missing a critical decision as a result are extremely low. Far less likely than having to judge ball in/out on the goal line.
As an assessor I'll suggest positions, but would only consider a markdown if you've missed something as a result - but of course acknowledging that there's no such thing as a perfect position.
Never understood the whole 'must move when the ball is kicked' thing. If you happen to be in the best position to view the drop, why move? Moving or not moving is a means to an end - the end is a better view.
Your movement is highly restricted on the GL until the ball is cleared out, but that's what you consider going into that position (ie you're not going to start moving as soon as the ball is kicked).
As for 'keep changing positions' - I've had games where the nature of the 'almost-foul' contests was such that there really was only one position on the field where I wanted to be. Usually I am all for changing positions - but as with all positioning 'rules', sometimes breaking them is best.
With no AR or club AR, I think the GL is such a superior position that sacrificing the 'keep changing' is worthy. Personally I think that advice is very highly overrated - it's the sort of thing assessors look for because assessors like to look for things that don't necessarily matter, because we have to mark you on something ;-)
I know the idea behind it, but at the level 99% of us referee I don't think the idea behind it really comes into play.
I really don't like standing off the back post. I'd only consider it if the corner is going long every single time. If the corner drops short we have a contest. If it goes long it's probably running to the corner and I've got time to clear off the GL.
Which in these cases, is always on the goal line, around the edge of the GA, on the same side as the ball.
Positioning is about weighing up what's more likely to happen versus what's more important and deciding where you need to be to balance those.
What decisions might you have to make at a CK?
- penalty kick. I'd argue that edge of the PA or goal line are as good as each other - they both have equal chance of spotting something you might miss from the other position.
- ball swerving out/in from the kick. Only the GL gives you a chance of spotting this
- offside. Unless it's one right in the corner, you probably have a better chance on the GL given it will be close to the GL
- DHB by defender on the post. Fair chance of your view being blocked outside the PA, probably better chance of spotting it on the GL
- Ball in/out of goal. Most critical decision, and you can only make this on the GL.
What other situations may arise?
- ball crosses to far side of goal and remains in contest. This is probably the worst case scenario because you may be unsighted, and it may be difficult to move into a better position
- Ball is cleared out for a fast counter. Most of the time when this happens you won't have a critical decision to make. Usually the ball will get held up in the midfield giving you enough time to catch up, the ball is intercepted and kicked out, the ball is intercepted for another attack, or there's a foul so clear you can see it from the next suburb. While there's a reasonable chance of the ball being cleared and you being behind play, the chances of missing a critical decision as a result are extremely low. Far less likely than having to judge ball in/out on the goal line.
As an assessor I'll suggest positions, but would only consider a markdown if you've missed something as a result - but of course acknowledging that there's no such thing as a perfect position.
Never understood the whole 'must move when the ball is kicked' thing. If you happen to be in the best position to view the drop, why move? Moving or not moving is a means to an end - the end is a better view.
Your movement is highly restricted on the GL until the ball is cleared out, but that's what you consider going into that position (ie you're not going to start moving as soon as the ball is kicked).
As for 'keep changing positions' - I've had games where the nature of the 'almost-foul' contests was such that there really was only one position on the field where I wanted to be. Usually I am all for changing positions - but as with all positioning 'rules', sometimes breaking them is best.
With no AR or club AR, I think the GL is such a superior position that sacrificing the 'keep changing' is worthy. Personally I think that advice is very highly overrated - it's the sort of thing assessors look for because assessors like to look for things that don't necessarily matter, because we have to mark you on something ;-)
I know the idea behind it, but at the level 99% of us referee I don't think the idea behind it really comes into play.
I really don't like standing off the back post. I'd only consider it if the corner is going long every single time. If the corner drops short we have a contest. If it goes long it's probably running to the corner and I've got time to clear off the GL.
I start on the edge of the PA in line with far goal post (for the corner kicker) meaning you can see the pushing and pulling. If I'm on the same side as the CAR then I may stand more in the middle (cue comments about being in the way of play!). When the ball is played I start to move into the PA and towards the goal line in order to have the best view possible. If I have my back turned to CAR then I turn slightly so they are in peripheral vision. Works for me
That's a really interesting and well thought out post @CapnBloodbeard , but I just have a few questions about it.
I suppose if you're fit/fast enough, you can expect to catch up more often than not, but do you often find yourself having to make a big decision like that from a long way away?
Bold mine. These two statements seem to strike me as mutually exclusive. If you're positioning yourself between the ball and the middle of the PA, where do you look? If you're looking at the ball to judge in/out of play, anything could happen in the PA before the ball is delivered and you have no chance of catching it. If you're looking at the PA, you've got less chance of telling where the ball is going, plus a non-zero chance of being in the way of a ball that is going along the line. Strikes me as less than ideal.
I'd personally disagree with this. A goal is of course the most critical decision, but borderline in/not in the goal decisions are incredibly rare - I can think of 2 in 3.5 years of refereeing where I wish I'd been on the goal line at a corner. The alternative is a potential DOGSO decision or a PK up the other end when a quick counter does occur - which I'd be shocked if you don't at least have to make some kind of game-changing decision at minimum once per match, even if that is a "no foul" decision.
I suppose if you're fit/fast enough, you can expect to catch up more often than not, but do you often find yourself having to make a big decision like that from a long way away?
CapnBloodbeard
RefChat Addict
Some good responses here Graeme and you've picked up well on a few possible issues.
you're quite right - this does leave you in a position where the ball and players are on completely different sides of you - and if it's a short corner you could be left with a problem too (in that case it's probably worth running out along the goal line to get a view of the ball and the drop zone), although I don't recall this ever being an issue.
Anyway, to respond to your concern - yes, it does mean that if the ball is swerving out/in you're taking your eyes off the drop zone. Almost every time, the moment the ball is kicked you know if this is going to be an issue. A quick glance back and forth is usually sufficient without causing problems. If you know players are getting physical in the box, you're looking at them and you hear the ball being kicked...well, you may have to make a decision not to be watching the ball. Offhand I don't think I've really run into a problem here.
Interesting that your experience is so different - I'd probably have more than 2 a season!!
But it goes back to what I was saying about weighing up what's likely, what's significant, and so forth. In your experience the chances are much, much lower that being on the GL will help you, so that will influence your decision.
In something like 15 years of refereeing, the number of times where I've felt that I didn't have a good view of a challenge in a potential DOGSO/PK situation I could probably count on one hand. More often than not you can clearly spot a foul from any distance. Sometimes you can't which is why we run our backsides off. Though it's angle that's more important than closeness.
Anyway, the fast counter that amounts to anything significant is fairly unusual - and the vast majority of the time the foul will either be clear to spot, or there's going to be no issue at all. But yes, it is certainly a possibility - and my fitness and speed have typically been pretty good which helps. The age and skill of the players are probably a factor worth considering here too in how fast they can get the ball upfield.
I would agree that it can mean you're out of position for a critical decision at the other end of the field. In my personal experience though, the GL position means I'm likely going to be in a better position for a more likely critical decision up this end (and to reiterate comments before, the critical decision I'm talking about here, there's no notion of 'good view but not perfect'. You either see it or don't. The critical decision up the other end, even if I'm still 50 yards behind play I have some view of it).