Norwich v QPR

[PinnerPaul]

Game of pens and pen appeals, but don't want to get into them, none clear cut all subjective.

However at one stage the Norwich bench, along with the players, were guilty of over stepping the line where appealing becomes dissent/harassment of the officials.

Obviously the 4th official thought so as well, as he called over the referee - the very experienced and generally excellent Oliver Langford.

However rather than issuing a yellow card or two, he just spoke to the Norwich manager and one of his staff.

In all the pre matches instructions I have been given as senior AR/4th, the ref has always said he is not interested in coming over to warn the bench, as he expected me to do that and that if he DID come over he would be issuing a card/sending away (in the days before cards for the benches)

Thought Mr Langford's (non) action a bit strange.

Thoughts?

 

[es1]

In all the pre matches instructions I have been given as senior AR/4th, the ref has always said he is not interested in coming over to warn the bench, as he expected me to do that and that if he DID come over he would be issuing a card/sending away (in the days before cards for the benches)

This is not what I've experienced! Generally refs I've worked with are happy to warn/give a b*llocking and I'm the same. I guess that's what's happened here

 

[PinnerPaul]

This is not what I've experienced! Generally refs I've worked with are happy to warn/give a b*llocking and I'm the same. I guess that's what's happened here

That's interesting, maybe in different areas/levels there are differences.

Just to make it 100% clear, I am talking when in a team of 3/4, not when working alone, obviously!

 

[es1]

That's interesting, maybe in different areas/levels there are differences.

Just to make it 100% clear, I am talking when in a team of 3/4, not when working alone, obviously!

Yeah may be one of those things that changes by region.

And yes, assumed with neutral ARs

 

[PinnerPaul]

Yeah may be one of those things that changes by region.

And yes, assumed with neutral ARs

Have to say, I haven't seen the verbal warning by the match referee very often at the top levels - hence why I mentioned it!

Expect someone to post half a dozen stills showing exactly that now though!

 

[es1]

Have to say, I haven't seen the verbal warning by the match referee very often at the top levels - hence why I mentioned it!

Expect someone to post half a dozen stills showing exactly that now though!

Yeah I think that's fair!

 

[RustyRef]

Before yellow cards could be shown to non-players it was quite common, as effectively the referee is conveying the message "behave or you are out". These days the yellow card conveys exactly the same message, but I'd say it depends on the scenario. For example, if the 4th official or AR calls over the referee I'd be expecting a caution as, especially at FL level, it has gone beyond an unacceptable level if the 4th official can't handle it.

At lower levels, especially when there is no 4th official, it may be that someone has said something that the referee reacts to himself without AR1 calling him over, and there it would be more acceptable to have a chat without a card coming out.

 

[socal lurker]

Before yellow cards could be shown to non-players it was quite common, as effectively the referee is conveying the message "behave or you are out". These days the yellow card conveys exactly the same message, but I'd say it depends on the scenario. For example, if the 4th official or AR calls over the referee I'd be expecting a caution as, especially at FL level, it has gone beyond an unacceptable level if the 4th official can't handle it.

At lower levels, especially when there is no 4th official, it may be that someone has said something that the referee reacts to himself without AR1 calling him over, and there it would be more acceptable to have a chat without a card coming out.

Agree. I would expect it to be rare if the R has to come over at top levels and doesn't show a card.

In my games, it varies widely on what I expect from my ARs. (I never have a 4O.) With less experienced ARs, I'm going to go over much sooner and still be giving warnings. When I have peers I trust as ARs, I tell them in the pregame to tell me what they need: If they think a warning from me is what's needed to manage, I will, and if they tell me a card is needed, I will. (A card given on the say so of the AR without the R even asking for an explanation from the AR can do well for establishing the AR authority--but R has to be in control of the game, or it can look like the R is being propped up by the ARs.)

 

[RustyRef]

There is also the scenario that the referee will get involved even if his 4th official hasn't. Example was when Klopp chucked his toys out of the pram against West Brom (they are still trying to find them) Kevin Friend went straight over with his yellow out, it was after all quite difficult not to notice when a 6'4" man is jumping up and down whilst cartwheeling his arms ...

 

[one]

I'm with @PinnerPaul on this. I have 4O a couple of times a year. They never appoint a 4O who can't handles themselves. So if I am coming over, it's a card. No 4O and NAR then it's the same. On the rare occasion when a NAR is very new or very young, I tell them to leave the bench management to me but you can call me over if you think I have missed something. With them the warn, if applicable, is with me too.

In the old days of "ask, tell, remove" ask was with AR and remove with me, tell changed depending on AR experience. But 4O always has the ask and tell.

 

[GraemeS]

Yep, another vote in line with @PinnerPaul and @one. Now that cards for the bench exist this is easy - the referee is the one with the cards so he has to come over to issue a card, anything less can be handled by the 4O or senior AR.

 

[JamesL]

Not an exact science. What if 4O or AR call ref over and he doesn't agree its card worthy? Or call over incorrectly, eg for a Warning offence.
In my prematch I do say I only want to come over for something you can't deal with and promote ask tell before involving me but all match officials are different and I will adapt to suit.

 

[Big Cat]

Assuming AR1 (or the 4O) is competent, I'm very much in agreement that if the R is needed, it's 'get your cards out time'
(Regardless of whether I'm the R or the AR)

 

[one]

promote ask tell before involving me

As you say it's not exact science but this is not the usual process. Your suggested way, they are off on their fourth indiscretion (assuming you don't go straight for red after their tell), ask, tell, yellow and then red. The usual and accepted practice is three steps. In the past with no cards it was ask tell remove, now with cards it's warn, yellow, red (or double yellow).

 

[JamesL]

As you say it's not exact science but this is not the usual process. Your suggested way, they are off on their fourth indiscretion (assuming you don't go straight for red after their tell), ask, tell, yellow and then red. The usual and accepted practice is three steps. In the past with no cards it was ask tell remove, now with cards it's warn, yellow, red (or double yellow).

Nah it's the same as private word, public boll***ing, yellow, red.
I at least want my AR to have tried to resolve an issue informally (where possible), one warning is not that. Obviously there are times where the mark is over stepped and you move straight past the light stuff and straight to sanction but ask and tell are very much still starighforward escalation path to follow.

 

[one]

Nah it's the same as private word, public boll***ing, yellow, red.

Except that that's the step theory for players. For the bench it is (was) ask, tell, remove. Anyway, if that is working for you then I'm not suggesting to change it.

 

[GraemeS]

Not an exact science. What if 4O or AR call ref over and he doesn't agree its card worthy? Or call over incorrectly, eg for a Warning offence.
In my prematch I do say I only want to come over for something you can't deal with and promote ask tell before involving me but all match officials are different and I will adapt to suit.

It's all in the opinion of the relevant AR/4O obviously.

To be more precise, I usually say something like "I don't want to be called over unless you believe a card is required, anything below that I'd like you to manage on your own. If you do call me over, I need to you be able to identify the offender and tell me what was said so that I can make the correct decision. I may also ask for a recommendation, but I will have to make the final decision myself."

ie. Manage minor issues, get me involved for anything more major, but make sure I have all the info to make a dispassionate decision. Still leaves that little loophole if I do get called over and decide the AR has been too quick to flag.