A&H

No point educating

L

ladbroke8745

RefChat Addict
Normally, I'd be very reluctant to use a card at younger age groups.
Not saying I don't give them (I've sent a 10 year old keeper off before for VC), just I'd rather try and educate, especially if it's their first season at 11v11 and with "proper" officials.

Today's fixture had a few incidents to say the least.

Card free first half, I did have to tell a player though to remove a hat that appeared after pre match checks which he didn't like. Kept pointing to his head saying something like how's it going to affect his head with it on.
At half time, as I've blown the whistle, a player from each side I had to call over as something was said, out of earshot but clearly something bothered the other (a parent brought the incident to my attention and told them both to be quiet). As I've asked them to both come over to me, one attempted to trip the other. I said I can not deal with what's said as I didn't hear it, but I can deal with what I see, and said I don't want to see this again. I told them that I'll be watching their every move in the 2nd half and that they'd best be on good behaviour. Thankfully these two were.

2nd half begins.

Early second half a player apparently made comments to home parents and they told him to be quiet. The away parents on the other side started shouting (and swearing) across the field at the home parents.
Ball come slowly towards me in middle of the pitch. Blew whistle, picked ball up, and shouted "parents, please be quiet. Coaches, if your parents don't stop it, ill continue to stop the game, even abandon it, if they don't calm down. It's kids football".
Got a round of applause as I dropped the ball for restart and got on with it before any one can argue back or blame someone else.

The next 5 minutes are crucial especially as I've just laid down authority. Couple challenges go in, soft, but fouls given. I'm in charge.
Then a reckless foul by away player who is the one giving back chat to me and parents. Easy caution. He doesn't like it as he feels I'm picking on him. No, it was a bad foul to give away.

Few minutes later, a player from each side get into a tug of war with each other, pulling and pushing. Again, 2 easy cautions.
Control massively gained. No complaints.

The first player cautioned walks by telling his coach about a foul not given to him, saying "it's not my fault he's an idiot". Said as he is 2 feet away from me walking by.
Stopped restart, called over and asked if he called me an idiot (just in case it was someone else), and he said yes.
I said to him that I could send him off. Why? He asked. I said it falls under foul, abusive and/or offensive. I reminded him he is on a yellow, clear enough that his coach can hear him. I told him I don't want to hear from him again, and to be very careful.
3 minutes later he commits a challenge from behind, reckless again IMO, and off he goes. Parent calls me stupid. Oh well. I effectively gave the coach a chance to sub him when not sending him off for calling me an idiot. Not my fault he is still on the pitch is it? (Well, maybe, I should've sent him off minutes earlier really).

One more caution for the home side for a similar tackle for the red and that was that.

Definitely earned my money at the end.
Losing side said I done very well and controlled it fantastically.
Winning side didn't even come and thank me or shake my hand.

Considering the young age of the players, swearing in general chat was very common.
One player even told his own parents to shut up and leave him alone as he missed a good chance and said you're making me feel down!
Felt sorry for him.
 
The Referee Store
Behaviour seems to be getting so much worse and it's on youth football where a large share of the issues are. The FA have to do something urgently.

I had a conversation with an U13 Coach before a game today and he even agreed with me that behaviour is getting worse rapidly. Coaches are getting more aggressive, screaming and shouting at players, officials and other coaches. Players are becoming increasingly more violent towards one another and parents just won't shut up 🤷🏻‍♂️
 
socal lurker said:
A player who thinks it is OK to call me an idea or is old enough to sit the rest of the game.
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Wolf_Ref said:
Big enough to be rude, big enough for the consequences.
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I am not disagreeing, and I am definitely feeling sorry for myself for not sending him off with that comment. I will say, at the time, that although he was talking about me, he didn't say it directly to me (even if he confirmed it when I spoke with him). It was said in a manner to his coach that I felt wasn't aggressive.
But being honest, I knew I should probably have sent him off and was glad that he made that challenge few minutes later and was able to send him off for actions he done on the pitch himself rather than his opinion of me.
 
ladbroke8745 said:
and was glad that he made that challenge few minutes later and was able to send him off for actions he done on the pitch himself rather than his opinion of me.
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don’t think of it as sending him off as being about you; itks dealing with a problem so the next ref (who may be a youth himself) doesn’t have to.
 
socal lurker said:
don’t think of it as sending him off as being about you; itks dealing with a problem so the next ref (who may be a youth himself) doesn’t have to.
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I know what you're saying.
I just felt, after the fact, I should have sent him off for the idiot comment, rather than pleased he made a stupid tackle that meant I could send him off for that instead.
 
ladbroke8745 said:
I know what you're saying.
I just felt, after the fact, I should have sent him off for the idiot comment, rather than pleased he made a stupid tackle that meant I could send him off for that instead.
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I think that's natural. Easy reds are always preferable, but there is less of a learning point with those.
 
I'd have been sin-binning him for calling me an idiot.

First year last year having done three years as parent/coach ref at U11s and below, and didn't issue a single card. Almost all games 9v9 and whilst YC's wouldn't have been needed often, there were certainly occasions where they would/should have been warranted under LOTG but chose to manage through stepped approach.

In hindsight, there were at least some occasions doing so didn't serve the players or subsequent referees well (though in 4 years of watching coaching at U11/12/13/14 I've only ever seen one caution issued that wasn't by me).

This year I'm much more willing to issue cards as warranted (10 YCs so far but no reds, at ages from U12 to U18) and only had to use sin-bin once (the threat of it generally works or results in coach making a sub), though may still used stepped approach more in U12s. What's notable is that parents/coaches are, nine times out of ten, actually grateful ("It's the only way he'll learn" or "It's about time someone did"). They're almost desperate for more discipline/control from the middle, though admittedly I ref largely in the "shires" and not in big cities where the touchline/parents sound way more challenging.
 
Kes said:
In which case you'd be wrong in law.
Calling you an idiot is an insult. The correct sanction is red. Sin Bins are for dissent. They're not a "general punishment" get out of jail card!
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This is an interesting debate. Working in sports law, I would feel very comfortable defending being called an "idiot" as a general display of dissent against my decisions/actions. I'm not at all trying to invent the LOTG or use sin-bins as a "get out of jail free card".

Equally, I accept that for others they may legitimately interpret it as an insult and go RC.
 
Kes said:
In which case you'd be wrong in law.
Calling you an idiot is an insult. The correct sanction is red. Sin Bins are for dissent. They're not a "general punishment" get out of jail card!
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I think saying it's wrong in law is pushing it a bit

A referee could be well within their rights to dismiss for this, but they're equally within their rights not to. I don't want to get into an OFFINABUS debate as they must be up there with handball & VAR for most discussed topics on here. But it's not as simple as saying 'oh they said this word, so I must do this'
 
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The Gump said:
This is an interesting debate. Working in sports law, I would feel very comfortable defending being called an "idiot" as a general display of dissent against my decisions/actions. I'm not at all trying to invent the LOTG or use sin-bins as a "get out of jail free card".

Equally, I accept that for others they may legitimately interpret it as an insult and go RC.
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It's not really debatable my friend.
Dissent is public disagreement (by word or action) with a match official's decision. Reading the OP's description of the event, that isn't what has happened here. The player isn't arguing or criticising a decision, he's insulting the referee. Simple as. Just because you'd feel comfortable pigeonholing it as "dissent" doesn't make it correct in law. No offence intended by the way ... ;)
 
Runner-Ref said:
A referee could be well within their rights to dismiss for this, but they're equally within their rights not to. I don't want to get into an OFFINABUS debate as they must be up there with handball & VAR for most discussed topics on here. But it's not as simple as saying 'oh they this word, so I must do this'
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That's not what I said at all.
 
Runner-Ref said:
You've said it is wrong in law to not send someone off for calling you an idiot. It is not wrong in law
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Actually I didn't.
I wrote that he'd be wrong in law to Sin Bin a player for an offence that isn't dissent.
Maybe re-read my post as well as the LOTG(?) ;) :D
 
Kes said:
Actually I didn't.
I wrote that he'd be wrong in law to Sin Bin a player for an offence that isn't dissent.
Maybe re-read my post as well as the LOTG(?) ;) :D
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Of course it can be seen as dissent. Dissent is the public protest or disagreement with a decision. It doesn't specifically state what words are used to dictate what is dissent and what is something more.

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The FA guidance on sin Bins is above. It states that someone can be sin binned for undermining a refs decision, shouting at the ref & questioning their ability. Nowhere does it say you simply go there for questioning a refs decision only

If you took how law is written by the nth degree, you should be sin binning someone for saying a throw in on the halfway line should have been their way.

Would you sin bin for the above?
 
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Runner-Ref said:
Of course it can be seen as dissent. Dissent is the public protest or disagreement with a decision. It doesn't specifically state what words are used to dictate what is dissent and what is something more.

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The FA guidance on sin Bins is above. It states that someone can be sin binned for undermining a refs decision, shouting at the ref & questioning their ability. Nowhere does it say you simply go there for questioning a refs decision only

If you took how law is written by the nth degree, you should be sin binning someone for saying a throw in on the halfway line should have been their way.

Would you sin bin for the above?
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Beat me to it @Runner-Ref !
 
Kes said:
It's not really debatable my friend.
Dissent is public disagreement (by word or action) with a match official's decision. Reading the OP's description of the event, that isn't what has happened here. The player isn't arguing or criticising a decision, he's insulting the referee. Simple as. Just because you'd feel comfortable pigeonholing it as "dissent" doesn't make it correct in law. No offence intended by the way ... ;)
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If you don't want to debate it, you don't have to, but:

a) You're wrong, my friend, in both law and based on FA guidance
b) Snarkiness or arrogance really isn't necessary to make your point
 
Runner-Ref said:
Of course it can he seen as dissent. Dissent is the public protest or disagreement with a decision. It doesn't specifically state what words are used to dictate what is dissent and what is something more.

If you took how law is written by the nth degree, you should be sin binning someone for saying a throw in on the halfway line should have been their way.

Would you sin bin for the above?
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With respect mate, you can't just make stuff up!!
You've correctly identified what dissent is in your post above so now do the easy part and identify what dissent isn't!!
Calling someone an idiot is designed and intended as an insult at best, offensive at worst. You can either choose to sanction it with a red card or bollock the player for it or ignore it. What you can't do is label it as something else and apply an incorrect sanction!!
 
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