A&H

Never given one of those before...

HRW said:
They do not.
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I take deliberately to mean, well, the dictionary definition. Intentionally is a lower threshold and so includes deliberate but also includes oblique intent, where the outcome could reasonably have been expected (putting your arms to the side to make yourself bigger and the ball has hit your arm... well it's not deliberate as you just wanted to make yourself bigger to put the attacker off but you should know that extending your arms out means that you could reasonably expect the ball to hit your hand)
 
The Referee Store
DB714 said:
I take deliberately to mean, well, the dictionary definition. Intentionally is a lower threshold and so includes deliberate but also includes oblique intent, where the outcome could reasonably have been expected (putting your arms to the side to make yourself bigger and the ball has hit your arm... well it's not deliberate as you just wanted to make yourself bigger to put the attacker off but you should know that extending your arms out means that you could reasonably expect the ball to hit your hand)
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I've never really thought that hard about it :confused:
 
I think in some areas of the law, the 'football' definition is at crossroads with the 'real world' definition. Deliberate is one example - realistically we apply it more as 'carelessly handles the ball' rather than 'deliberately'.
 
The question at hand was whether a consideration of the element of intent can be totally removed from a referee's thought processes. All I said was that while that is true for most offences, it is not true in regard to handling offences and kicks to the keeper. For instance much of this discussion has been about whether a player should be punished for a deliberate kick to the keeper and at least seven different contributors have used the words intent, intend, intended or intention, in relation to deciding whether it was deliberate or not.

So quite clearly, when an offence requires you to decide if something was done deliberately, the element of intent does enter into consideration.
 
HRW said:
They do not.
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Pretty sure that for argument's sake, in the context of a football match, they are one and the same. ;)

Officer: "Okay Sir, did you intend to shoot your next door neighbour?"

Man: "Well, yes officer, but I didn't do it deliberately"..... etc.... :rolleyes:
 
"Deliberate" doesn't require intent, only that the negative outcome was considered (and determined to be likely or relevant) but the action was taken anyway. Consider the verbal sense, 'to deliberate (on something)'. The intent is a positive outcome, the deliberation is knowing a negative outcome is likely too.
Intent is different. To do something intentionally, to intend it, with intent, is to take action so that it occurs. It is more than deliberate, and anything intentional is also deliberate, but not vice versa.
 
We're not talking about the meaning of the verb deliberate, we're talking about the meaning of the adverb deliberately.
Different parts of speech based on the same original etymology, do not always carry the same exact shades of meaning.

I have already given, as an example, one dictionary definition of deliberately, which is:

consciously and intentionally; on purpose. (Oxford English Dictionary)

Here are several more definitions of deliberately from various sources:

Done or said in a way that is planned or intended (Merriam Webster Dictionary)
Done with or marked by full consciousness of the nature and effects; intentional (the freedictionary.com)
Intentionally (Cambridge English Dictionary)
Used to describe an action made intentionally (vocabulary.com)
With a definite intention, not by chance or by accident (Macmillan Dictionary)
Intentionally, or after deliberation; not accidentally. (Yourdictionary.com)
done in a way that is intended or planned [= on purpose, intentionally] (Longman English Dictionary)
 
Peter Grove said:
We're not talking about the meaning of the verb deliberate, we're talking about the meaning of the adverb deliberately.
Different parts of speech based on the same original etymology, do not always carry the same exact shades of meaning.

I have already given, as an example, one dictionary definition of deliberately, which is:

consciously and intentionally; on purpose. (Oxford English Dictionary)

Here are several more definitions of deliberately from various sources:

Done or said in a way that is planned or intended (Merriam Webster Dictionary)
Done with or marked by full consciousness of the nature and effects; intentional (the freedictionary.com)
Intentionally (Cambridge English Dictionary)
Used to describe an action made intentionally (vocabulary.com)
With a definite intention, not by chance or by accident (Macmillan Dictionary)
Intentionally, or after deliberation; not accidentally. (Yourdictionary.com)
done in a way that is intended or planned [= on purpose, intentionally] (Longman English Dictionary)
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Not sure anyone would stand still long enough to listen to that on Sunday morning!:);):p
 
Anyone ever given a FK for a clear 'parry' and pick up..... That can brighten up a cold November morning. Goalkeepers don't expect that one to be called! :)
 
Sheffields Finest said:
Anyone ever given a FK for a clear 'parry' and pick up..... That can brighten up a cold November morning. Goalkeepers don't expect that one to be called! :)
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Never actually given one. Though THREE times in the last season I've been on the line when it's happened and the referee has ignored it. On each occasion I mentioned it to the GK after the game and they were grateful for the heads up!
 
I love also giving the handball which a keeper does when he ends up 3-4 yard outside his box from a fly kick...clearly initially holding the ball as he advances out to get decent purchase.. I've often hovered back if I suspect he's doing it. (No linos)
 
Kes said:
Not sure what you mean here - do you mean the GK saves a shot from an opponent and then picks the ball up??
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"A goalkeeper is not permitted to touch the ball with his hand inside his own
penalty area in the following circumstances:
• if he handles the ball again after it has been released from his possession
and has not touched any other player:
– the goalkeeper is considered to be in control of the ball by touching
it with any part of his hands or arms except if the ball rebounds
accidentally from him, e.g. after he has made a save
– possession of the ball includes the goalkeeper deliberately parrying the
ball"
 
Sheffields Finest said:
"A goalkeeper is not permitted to touch the ball with his hand inside his own
penalty area in the following circumstances:
• if he handles the ball again after it has been released from his possession
and has not touched any other player:
– the goalkeeper is considered to be in control of the ball by touching
it with any part of his hands or arms except if the ball rebounds
accidentally from him, e.g. after he has made a save
– possession of the ball includes the goalkeeper deliberately parrying the
ball"
Click to expand...

Forgive me Yorkshire, for I may be being a bit thick here, but what exactly is your point Sir? :)
 
There is a big difference between a save, rebound etc and a parry....that is counted as control and you can't then pick it up....rarely given though
 
Sheffields Finest said:
There is a big difference between a save, rebound etc and a parry....that is counted as control and you can't then pick it up....rarely given though
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Again mate, I may be being a bit thick here, but the GK has always been able to parry a shot from an opponent and then "pounce" on the ball or pick it up. Besides, there's contradiction in your post above. It says if the GK parries, he's considered to be "in possession" of the ball and therefore logic suggests that he hasn't actually yet released it and so is quite within his rights to collect after any "parry". .... :confused: :)
 
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