Luton v Wolves

[OnlyUseMeWhistle]

Why? Balance? I'm sure he didn't do it expecting the ball to be deflected up from his leg. If he even thought about it, maybe he thought it was less risky ("deliberate") than having his arms extended sideways.

Are you stating that an arm above a certain angle is unnatural? What is the exact angle the arm can be taking into consideration physical dynamics? Straight? Ninety degrees and rigid?

I beg of you both to go outside and try recreating that movement with your arm at different angles, straight in the air guarantees you probably hit the deck after, so it isn't helping with balance.

The Dunk handball from a couple of weeks ago is more debatable, he's tucked in as much as physically possible whilst sliding, including bending his arm. But the hand couldn't have been more extended and did stop the ball continuing into the box

 

[Big Cat]

Unfortunately, my psychic abilities are limited so I can only apply the laws as written rather than as intended

I completely understand this sentiment. There's some very informed Referees on this Forum and there's still a high degree of conjecture amongst this group, so what chance has anyone got whose not on CORE or whatever?

Fundamentally, the ethos of Handball still seems to be based on intent (deliberate), but the use of the term 'unnatural position' and/or 'biggering' (no such word) has proven to be a very poor indicator of intent (certainly a very poor indicator of fairness). Clause, 'the position of the hand is a consequence of, or justifiable by, the player's body movement for that specific situation' has been diluted to mean, 'anything away from the body is unnatural and/or biggering' is Handball. The football community in the UK have unanimously derided this as farcical because it's wrong on a binary/literal basis

There is no consistency in decisions in the EPL, for those occasions when the ball strikes a body part before hitting the hand/arm. I honestly don't know if this was taken out of Law because it's no longer a criteria. It's a mess

 

[socal lurker]

Unnaturally biggering came first as an explanation of how to identify “sneaky” deliberate handling—if the position was unnatural, it was a good clue that the arm was deliberately there to make the body bigger in the hope it would block the ball. I found that instruction useful. But we’ve gone way past that. And unnatural position doesn’t really mean unnatural for what a player is doing. As applied, it really means something more along the lines of “not consistent with what we expect a player to do to appropriately keep his arms out of the way as the Game expects.” But that is a bit circular in nature, as what is expected is based on what is called. And I think a lot what is driving controversy is VAR—what might have been “that was close, and we can see why the R called it that way” becomes “there is a right answer for everything as everything is exact.” but it isn’t.

 

[Pembroke]

I beg of you both to go outside and try recreating that movement with your arm at different angles, straight in the air guarantees you probably hit the deck after, so it isn't helping with balance.

If you reread the thread I posed a similar question. So, do not beg, I have performed that movement frequently over thirty years of playing, training and as a coach of ten plus years I can witness this natural movement.

Raised arms.

Reach for the ball with a leg and you will use your arms as a counterbalance. Every single picture displays what are natural positions.

 

[OnlyUseMeWhistle]

If you reread the thread I posed a similar question. So, do not beg, I have performed that movement frequently over thirty years of playing, training and as a coach of ten plus years I can witness this natural movement.

Raised arms.

Reach for the ball with a leg and you will use your arms as a counterbalance. Every single picture displays what are natural positions.

Half of those the arms are out (right about counterbalance) and not up straight in the air like in this case.

Also most are properly sliding, which this wasn’t a slide. Regardless if I could be bothered I could find 5 photos and use my own anecdotal experience as a CB and RB that show that many players keep their arms down whilst sliding.

 

[cwyeary]

But whether you like it or not the standard at the pro level has been when you are blocking a shot or a cross (e.g. an expected ball) you need to take extra care to keep your arms near your body or you run the risk of giving up the pk.

As soon as a defender can lunge at a shot on goal with their arms up and away from your body then amazingly enough every defender will start doing that.

 

[Tealeaf]

Don’t worry it’s all part of the Gary O’Neill conspiracy.

Blame it on everyone else, get a multi-million pound payout when sacked and get another role by convincing those hiring that it’s not you who’s failing, citing this as evidence.

#sarcasm

It’s also a nailed on penalty (and not just because I’m a Luton boy), particularly when compared to that awarded to Luton on opening day vs Brighton. So high in the air it is the epitome of making yourself bigger

 

[RustyRef]

If you reread the thread I posed a similar question. So, do not beg, I have performed that movement frequently over thirty years of playing, training and as a coach of ten plus years I can witness this natural movement.

Raised arms.

Reach for the ball with a leg and you will use your arms as a counterbalance. Every single picture displays what are natural positions.

Anyone can post images from the Jaap Stam and David Ginola era, but they aren't relevant, the law has changed massively since then. These days, and I will be the first to admit I would have hated it as a defender, you have to be very careful what you do with your arms. If your arm is vertically above your head and the ball hits it then you are getting penalised.

This is another debate that would only be had in England. In Europe there would be absolutely zero questioning of that handball decision, nor the Romero one. For some reason people in England think we are immune to the handball law.

 

[Pembroke]

Half of those the arms are out (right about counterbalance) and not up straight in the air like in this case.

Also most are properly sliding, which this wasn’t a slide. Regardless if I could be bothered I could find 5 photos and use my own anecdotal experience as a CB and RB that show that many players keep their arms down whilst sliding.

My view is not anecdotal. Its evidence based. We move our arms to balance rotational movements. Rapid limb movements (those leg extensions) require use of arms to control our centre of mass and dynamic movement. These movements will also not be exact individual to individual as we do not share the same physical characteristics.

Anyone can post images from the Jaap Stam and David Ginola era, but

Yes. I have posted pictures in posts from the 70's to the 2020's to demonstrate physical bio mechanics have not changed. Those images display what are natural movements.

 

[socal lurker]

Yes. I have posted pictures in posts from the 70's to the 2020's to demonstrate physical bio mechanics have not changed. Those images display what are natural movements.

you can get hung up the literal words, or you can pay attention to how it is been envisioned. The clear reality is that what is natural position is not used in the biomechanical sense. It’s used in the sense of natural to what soccer expects players to do to keep their arms out of the way. This wouldn’t be where I would necessarily up, but I think it is correct that England is more resistant than the rest of the world in accepting that this isn’t so much about biometrics as about what football expects.

 

[OnlyUseMeWhistle]

My view is not anecdotal. Its evidence based. We move our arms to balance rotational movements. Rapid limb movements (those leg extensions) require use of arms to control our centre of mass and dynamic movement. These movements will also not be exact individual to individual as we do not share the same physical characteristics.

The evidence being your own personal experience and a limited knowledge of physics and physiology which is easily disproven by 5 more pictures of defenders doing the same motions without doing their best “me sir pick me” impression.

The law feels bad but it also feels bad when a defender can just leave an arm out and block a ball that could have made its way to an attacker because it’s the one body motion in football we don’t regulate. It’s “careless” to use a familiar phrase from elsewhere in law.

 

[ChasObserverRefDeveloper]

Part of the problem appears to be some contributors stating that the law is about "deliberate handling"
It is one bullet point within the handball section of the law, but the next is about making the body bigger.
Whether people like it or not, the laws are there for us to apply.

 

[socal lurker]

Part of the problem appears to be some contributors stating that the law is about "deliberate handling"
It is one bullet point within the handball section of the law, but the next is about making the body bigger.
Whether people like it or not, the laws are there for us to apply.

And at the risk of going down a different rabbit hole, along the same lines as my comments about natural position, a dictionary definition of “deliberate” was never what really applied before they played around with “hand ball” over the past few years . . .

 

[Mr Dean]

Part of the problem appears to be some contributors stating that the law is about "deliberate handling"
It is one bullet point within the handball section of the law, but the next is about making the body bigger.
Whether people like it or not, the laws are there for us to apply.

You are semi-correct but you have oversimplified the bullet point. Many referees are awarding handball when a player has made themselves bigger. This is not correct application of the law. It is only an offence when the body is "unnaturally" bigger. If you read the bullet point in full, you will find that some sort of conscious intent from the player placing his arm in an unnatural position is necessary.

 

[Pembroke]

The evidence being your own personal experience and a limited knowledge of physics and physiology .

My experience isn't limited, Its my job. My knowledge, my qualifications and the now several thousand hours of performing my roles puts my expertise at expert level ... Unlike my refereeing.

 

[Big Cat]

My experience isn't limited, Its my job. My knowledge, my qualifications and the now several thousand hours of performing my roles puts my expertise at expert level ... Unlike my refereeing.

We both know that 'arms literally anywhere' can be a natural position and can easily be

a consequence of, or justifiable by, the player's body movement for that specific situation

The problem is the IFAB's misuse of the term 'natural position', ultimately creating this dog's dinner of a situaution
The reality being, unnatural position in IFAB's dictionary, literally means 'away from the body, full stop' and they may as well take the clause I've quoted out of the book

Anyway, I think you're entirely right

 

[santa sangria]

We both know that 'arms literally anywhere' can be a natural position and can easily be

The problem is the IFAB's misuse of the term 'natural position', ultimately creating this dog's dinner of a situaution
The reality being, unnatural position in IFAB's dictionary, literally means 'away from the body, full stop' and they may as well take the clause I've quoted out of the book

Anyway, I think you're entirely right

You are right here.

( Big Cat hacked again!)

 

[RustyRef]

My experience isn't limited, Its my job. My knowledge, my qualifications and the now several thousand hours of performing my roles puts my expertise at expert level ... Unlike my refereeing.

You work for IFAB? You must do if you know what IFAB intend when they write the laws as no one else does.

What is absolutely clear, and watch any FIFA or UEFA game to evidence this claim, the expectation from the governing body is that arm significantly out from body equals handball if it is hit. I can't really think of any recent ones that haven't been given (excluding the EPL, who we know are a law unto themselves with both VAR and handling offences), certainly not when the arm as been as high as the Wolves player's way. Perhaps they think you can dive to block a shot without your arms coming out. More likely is I think that their expectation is if performing an action will make your arm go above your head then you shouldn't be making that action. That ties in with the part of the law that says "by having their hand/arm in such a position, the player takes a risk of their hand/arm being hit by the ball and being penalised".

 

[Pembroke]

You work for IFAB? You must do if you know what IFAB intend when they write the laws as no one else does.

What is absolutely clear, and watch any FIFA or UEFA game to evidence this claim, the expectation from the governing body is that arm significantly out from body equals handball if it is hit. I can't really think of any recent ones that haven't been given (excluding the EPL, who we know are a law unto themselves with both VAR and handling offences), certainly not when the arm as been as high as the Wolves player's way. Perhaps they think you can dive to block a shot without your arms coming out. More likely is I think that their expectation is if performing an action will make your arm go above your head then you shouldn't be making that action. That ties in with the part of the law that says "by having their hand/arm in such a position, the player takes a risk of their hand/arm being hit by the ball and being penalised".

Thank you. I have commented on the use of balance, and natural in the thread. What IFAB appear to expect is unnatural, and physically illogical.

We both know that 'arms literally anywhere' can be a natural position and can easily be

The problem is the IFAB's misuse of the term 'natural position', ultimately creating this dog's dinner of a situaution
The reality being, unnatural position in IFAB's dictionary, literally means 'away from the body, full stop' and they may as well take the clause I've quoted out of the book

Anyway, I think you're entirely right

Thanks. Its a tough gig.

I use these threads to educate myself. I have learned something, but wont be inflicting it on the u12's, u13's .. etc I ref. They will get informed common sense instead.

 

[Big Cat]

Thank you. I have commented on the use of balance, and natural in the thread. What IFAB appear to expect is unnatural, and physically illogical.



Thanks. Its a tough gig.

I use these threads to educate myself. I have learned something, but wont be inflicting it on the u12's, u13's .. etc I ref. They will get informed common sense instead.

Thankfully we don't have freeze frames and slow motion to forensically identify this ball to hand stuff
It's always vexed me the way IFAB put stuff in the book before it morphs into something quite different once the Confederations and Leagues start teaching interpretations

I sometimes can't tell if the dog's wagging its tail, the tail is wagging the dog, or the whole thing is just wagging. Seems like the latter IMO