Liverpool Vs Arsenal

[OldNavyRef]

Player grabs Officials arm. Official aggressively brakes the contact. In doing so catches Player in face. Due to being annoyed by Player, Official continues to walk away, offering a slight shrug that can basically be read as, "didn't mean to catch you, but don't touch me". Player then goes full baby mode.

Morale of the story, do not grab on to the arm of someone with the build of Hatzidakis. The guys friggin huge.

 

[zarathustra]

It’s a difficult one, if the FA have reviewed all the evidence (I assume they have access to the audio from the mics etc) and have taken statements from Hatzidakis and Robertson etc and determined that no further action is needed then that’s that.

It’s not going to please everybody, especially the Liverpool fans who are going into full meltdown on social media, but to me it’s no different than a player getting sent off and having the card overturned on appeal.

 

[GraemeS]

Transparency in football is non-existent so there is little chance of the FA releasing the audio from the assistant's mic but I'm assuming the FA would have listened to it as part of their investigation. The assistant says that the contact was accidental. No further action is the correct outcome if intent cannot be proved. Now it's time to stop players approaching officials so that something similar doesn't happen again.

What would mic audio possibly prove? If you're looking for him to say "I'm about to deliberately elbow you" then I think your threshold for proof is a little too high. If you're looking for "provocation" from Robertson then we wouldn't accept that as an excuse from a player. So I'm not really sure what the audio could possibly add that clears him?

It’s a difficult one, if the FA have reviewed all the evidence (I assume they have access to the audio from the mics etc) and have taken statements from Hatzidakis and Robertson etc and determined that no further action is needed then that’s that.

It’s not going to please everybody, especially the Liverpool fans who are going into full meltdown on social media, but to me it’s no different than a player getting sent off and having the card overturned on appeal.

Which is exactly my point - put a player in Hatzidakis' position and there is zero chance of it being overturned. That motion in response to being grabbed and with forceful elbow contact in the throat area is just a straightforward red card. That's the double-standard that feels wrong here.

 

[zarathustra]

What would mic audio possibly prove? If you're looking for him to say "I'm about to deliberately elbow you" then I think your threshold for proof is a little too high. If you're looking for "provocation" from Robertson then we wouldn't accept that as an excuse from a player. So I'm not really sure what the audio could possibly add that clears him?


Which is exactly my point - put a player in Hatzidakis' position and there is zero chance of it being overturned. That motion in response to being grabbed and with forceful elbow contact in the throat area is just a straightforward red card. That's the double-standard that feels wrong here.

But Hatzidakis isn’t a player and the laws of the game don’t cover any misconduct by match officials.

I’m also not convinced it was a “forceful elbow”.

 

[GraemeS]

I have been accused on here before of being overly critical of my colleagues, so I’m the last person here who’s going to close ranks around them.

That being said though, what a fantastic call by the FA. For me it’s nothing more than the AR shrugging Robbo off and catching him by mistake.

And then the “hard man” Robertson started crying about it. Keane was spot on and destroyed him. “What a baby.” The pundits all laughing with him hurt Robertson even more.

The FA made the right call and didn’t back to peer pressure. Would’ve loved to see Robertson get a ban for the contact with the ref but that would start WW3 after the AR has got nothing . I’m presuming the main person defending Robertson here is a Liverpool fan.

If you're referring to me, you should note that I'm not defending Robertson - I know he's chippy, I know he will have been chirping away at the AR on his side all 1st half and I know he shouldn't have made contact. You'll note a page or so back I had a discussion with one of out esteemed forum staff when I suggested that maybe we could proactively use a dissent caution if he's really annoyed the AR that much?

I just happen to think that "being elbowed in the throat" isn't the appropriate punishment for the AR to hand out for those offences. I don't want to normalise and accept contact between players and officials regardless of who initiates it and I think failing to punish an official for something that would clearly be unacceptable for a player to do creates a bad double-standard. Lack of accountability is usually a nonsense accusation when thrown at match officials, but it seems accurate here.

You're also not exactly coming across neutral in this post either. Keane is outright lying when he pretends he wouldn't have lost his mind if that happened to him - taking his word as gospel instead of realising he's clearly talking ****e suggests serious preconceptions on your part.

 

[GraemeS]

But Hatzidakis isn’t a player and the laws of the game don’t cover any misconduct by match officials.

I’m also not convinced it was a “forceful elbow”.

Of course not, but they provide a pretty good framework for what is considered acceptable on a pitch. This hasn't really happened much before (outside the French and Mexican examples mentioned earlier - which BTW, resulted in serious punishment for the officials), so we need to find precedent where we can even if it's not directly applicable.

Contact with the head by players when not challenging for the ball is either with negligible force, or VC. This clearly isn't negligible for me, so when trying to find LOTG player analogues we have to be looking at VC as the baseline here.

 

[Quarryref]

When you cut through the noise and the expected one-eyed fan and virtue-signalling pundit reactions, this feels to me like the sensible outcome.

Only Constantine will know what was going through his head at the time, but I for one am comfortable with the explanation that he caught him accidentally. If he had a history of overreacting, I might wonder otherwise - I don't know for certain, but I am pretty sure if there was anything remotely relevant in his officiating career, someone would have dragged it up by now.

So accident, leads to apology, which is accepted. Move on.

What would have completed the circle would be an apology from Robertson for his behaviour - not in mitigation of the official's reaction, but just accepting he was also out of order. However, I know that's wishful thinking ....

 

[deusex]

We're doing personal attacks now are we?

The post you're quoting has likes from multiple other members which implies agreement. Are they also being disingenuous by association? Or is it possible that I'm making perfectly valid arguments and you're just resorting to attacking me rather than just putting a coherent argument together?

Please point out the personal attack on that post.

I would have thought someone so abrasive, argumentative and arrogant would be less sensitive.

Sad thing is, you're going away thinking you've nailed this. I can't help you. Become a politician, you'd excel.

 

[Matthew]

If you're referring to me, you should note that I'm not defending Robertson - I know he's chippy, I know he will have been chirping away at the AR on his side all 1st half and I know he shouldn't have made contact. You'll note a page or so back I had a discussion with one of out esteemed forum staff when I suggested that maybe we could proactively use a dissent caution if he's really annoyed the AR that much?

I just happen to think that "being elbowed in the throat" isn't the appropriate punishment for the AR to hand out for those offences. I don't want to normalise and accept contact between players and officials regardless of who initiates it and I think failing to punish an official for something that would clearly be unacceptable for a player to do creates a bad double-standard. Lack of accountability is usually a nonsense accusation when thrown at match officials, but it seems accurate here.

You're also not exactly coming across neutral in this post either. Keane is outright lying when he pretends he wouldn't have lost his mind if that happened to him - taking his word as gospel instead of realising he's clearly talking ****e suggests serious preconceptions on your part.

I think you're getting too hung up on the concept that this was a deliberate action. You seem to have decided that Hatzidakis has deliberately and violently elbowed Robertson which in my view, and apparently in the view of the FA, is not the case.

If you look at this as accidental, then an apology and no further action is the only possible outcome. I can recall a number of occasions where players have run into/caught officials with stray arms (and vice versa, thinking Robbie Savage and Matt Messias (?)) with no further action taken, so there is precedent (although this is clearly slightly different).

 

[GraemeS]

I think you're getting too hung up on the concept that this was a deliberate action. You seem to have decided that Hatzidakis has deliberately and violently elbowed Robertson which in my view, and apparently in the view of the FA, is not the case.

If you look at this as accidental, then an apology and no further action is the only possible outcome. I can recall a number of occasions where players have run into/caught officials with stray arms (and vice versa, thinking Robbie Savage and Matt Messias (?)) with no further action taken, so there is precedent (although this is clearly slightly different).

I'm not saying it's definitely deliberate in the 100% provable court of law sense. I'm saying that if we were the match official on a pitch and we saw one player do that to another, we would default to red card - and that should be the starting point for deciding where to pitch future action, otherwise it's just hypocritical. We wouldn't go through a process of gathering statements, asking opinions from bystanders, deciding we don't have 100% proof of malice and then do nothing, we'd just make the obvious call in the moment.

I'm being pushed into a strawman position of people acting like I want him hung drawn and quartered, which simply isn't the case. I think a player would be uncontroversially sent off and banned for 3 matches for this. And since people who implement the law have to be held to higher standards, double that and then quietly keep him away from Liverpool matches for the next season seems pretty reasonable to me.

He's already a SG1 AR and he will be again next season. It's not that dramatic a punishment and it doesn't need to have any major impact on his future career or earnings.

 

[santa sangria]

I’m not comfortable with the decision.

If this was player on player, it would be a red card VC offence, right? Does anyone think otherwise?

Based on that, surely the AR must be suspended. And because of the high standards we set for ourselves, I would expect demotion.

Robertson should also punished. But he did not commit a RC offence. So YC is right, maybe YYN could be justified, and the club could be sanctioned (failure to control players, fined plus additional statements of contrition).

Instead the decision here has glossed over a serious VC-type action. IMHO.

 

[zarathustra]

You can’t compare this to what would happen if a player did something similar, because Hatzidakis isn’t a player, and the laws of the game don’t cater for possible offences by match officials.

I don’t think the elbow was “forceful” and from looking at his hand (being open rather than a fist) it think it is highly unlikely he meant to elbow Robertson and was just shrugging the player off.

PGMOL can still punish him if they see fit, they are his employer, not The FA, so they could still choose not to appoint him to games, or give him lower level games for a little while.

 

[Ste500]

I personally don't think it meets the threshold of VC. (excessive force or brutality)
I would argue the force is negligible...
However I do think the AR shouldn't of reacted the way he did.

 

[GraemeS]

You can’t compare this to what would happen if a player did something similar, because Hatzidakis isn’t a player, and the laws of the game don’t cater for possible offences by match officials.

I don’t think the elbow was “forceful” and from looking at his hand (being open rather than a fist) it think it is highly unlikely he meant to elbow Robertson and was just shrugging the player off.

PGMOL can still punish him if they see fit, they are his employer, not The FA, so they could still choose not to appoint him to games, or give him lower level games for a little while.

Well what can we compare this to then? The only other two incidences of officials striking players I can recall are the recent one from Mexico (who has been banned for 12 games) and the French official from a few years ago (who was essentially pushed into early retirement as a result).

So by suggesting 6 games, I'm arguably pushing for a very lenient penalty based on the only direct precedence...

 

[JamesL]

I personally don't think it meets the threshold of VC. (excessive force or brutality)
I would argue the force is negligible...
However I do think the AR shouldn't of reacted the way he did.

I'm sure you don't really mean negligible...

"so small or unimportant as to be not worth considering; insignificant."

That contact cannot be described as negligible really.

 

[santa sangria]

Good point from a Talk*** caller - what if it had been a fan?

IMHO the player came from the front and they were talking so I’m not sure it is a factor.

Is the underlying issue here a tiny misstep - if the AR had jogged to the ref as usual, we wouldn’t be here. A butterfly flaps its wings…

 

[santa sangria]

I'm sure you don't really mean negligible...

"so small or unimportant as to be not worth considering; insignificant."

That contact cannot be described as negligible really.

Negligible in LotG context… if player vs player… what do you think?

 

[Ste500]

I'm sure you don't really mean negligible...

"so small or unimportant as to be not worth considering; insignificant."

That contact cannot be described as negligible really.

Yeh probably not negligible but certainly not brutality or excessive force!

 

[GraemeS]

Yeh probably not negligible but certainly not brutality or excessive force!

The LOTG defines non-playing contact to the head and neck as VC unless it is with negligible force. So in that context, you literally only have those two options - is it negligible force? If no, it must be VC.

 

[JamesL]

Well what can we compare this to then? The only other two incidences of officials striking players I can recall are the recent one from Mexico (who has been banned for 12 games) and the French official from a few years ago (who was essentially pushed into early retirement as a result).

So by suggesting 6 games, I'm arguably pushing for a very lenient penalty based on the only direct precedence...

I think this falls way below the level of contact in those examples.

For what it's worth, I didn't really want to comment until the outcome but my take on it is this:

For me, this is a pure accident. Robertson grabs, or attempts to grab the ARs arm, the AR goes to knock the arm away or Shake out of the grab but in between the arm is retracted and that lead to the contact.

A bit like at school when you'd move someone's chair as they were about to sit down.

Had the AR just shrugged the arm away this probably doesn't even get a mention. If a player grabbed anyone in this forum, we all do exactly the same, a get off me action. There was just an unintended consequence that came about as a result of that.