A&H

Liverpool Vs Arsenal

GraemeS said:
You use the word "assumption" to downplay the evidence. We're not assuming anything - we've all see the videos and can all draw whatever conclusion we draw. Assumptions don't come into it.

And the AR will say of course he didn't - because apart from anything else, there's literally no benefit to saying he did it deliberately.

The point is, I don't really care what he decides to claim in any tribunal, and I don't really care what he tries to spin as reasons. I'd be happy with a red card and a suspension for a player who did that. So for me, the only question is what is the equivalent to that punishment for a match official - and I don't need his input for that.
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Interesting how not one judicial system in the free world works like that.

In a football match, sure, a reason given by a player for SFP or VC is usually completely irrelevant. The laws allow the ref to be judge, jury and executioner for the sake of a game to finish in 90 mins.

But this is real life. This man has a mortgage. If you sack/suspend this man without even hearing his evidence, he'd be driving your car home from the employment tribunal.

There are a hundred reasons he could have reacted like this.
 
The Referee Store
GraemeS said:
You use the word "assumption" to downplay the evidence. We're not assuming anything - we've all see the videos and can all draw whatever conclusion we draw. Assumptions don't come into it.
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He uses the word assumption because that video is not proof of a man deliberately elbowing someone in the face.
 
deusex said:
Interesting how not one judicial system in the free world works like that.

In a football match, sure, a reason given by a player for SFP or VC is usually completely irrelevant. The laws allow the ref to be judge, jury and executioner for the sake of a game to finish in 90 mins.

But this is real life. This man has a mortgage. If you sack/suspend this man without even hearing his evidence, he'd be driving your car home from the employment tribunal.

There are a hundred reasons he could have reacted like this.
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Speaking from experience (management side) it is completely normal in employment world to suspend someone on full pay whilst an investigation, into such a serious allegation, happens.

Plus, you don't actually know if he has a mortgage. Could rent or own outright ☺️
 
JamesL said:
Speaking from experience (management side) it is completely normal in employment world to suspend someone on full pay whilst an investigation, into such a serious allegation, happens.

Plus, you don't actually know if he has a mortgage. Could rent or own outright ☺️
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Ha, true but he'll be missing out on his match fee (about £1k?). But yeah his contract will probably state he isn't guaranteed any games.
 
deusex said:
Interesting how not one judicial system in the free world works like that.

In a football match, sure, a reason given by a player for SFP or VC is usually completely irrelevant. The laws allow the ref to be judge, jury and executioner for the sake of a game to finish in 90 mins.

But this is real life. This man has a mortgage. If you sack/suspend this man without even hearing his evidence, he'd be driving your car home from the employment tribunal.

There are a hundred reasons he could have reacted like this.
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You've literally laid out the fact that football works like that. So why's it fine for a referee to make a decision that results in a player being suspended just on their view, but it's abhorrent to apply that same process to a match official?

And it's perfectly possible for that process to impact players ability to pay rent/mortgages at lower levels - rumours are that a handful of star players at the higher level I run lines on earn up to £500 a match, and bans for SFP/VC will often be measured in weeks. A 3 week ban based purely on a match official saying he saw an elbow thrown could lose that player thousands.

Either we do apply burden of proof for footballing suspensions (in which case, we might actually need to take the ridiculous calls for bodycams seriously) or we don't. What we shouldn't be doing is selectively introducing a higher threshold of evidence due to an instinct to close ranks around a fellow match official.
 
He should not have done what he did, whether accidental or not it was unprofessional and some form of punishment is warranted. Match officials need to be held to a higher standard than players.

It does open up a wider topic of how football has come to this, particularly the behaviour of players and club staff (coaches etc) towards match officials. The surrounding and harassment during and after games is going to lead to people perhaps being more on edge than they might normally be which can lead to people doing things which are out of character.
 
I think CH has a challenge in explaining his actions. If he goes down the route that Robertson said an offensive remark which caused him to react in this manner then he is accountable for this reaction, regardless of how offensive the comment was. We as Match Officials are trained to move away from confrontation not towards it. Secondly, anyone who accidentally catches someone unintentionally with arm/elbow instinctively apologies immediately. So was it accidental?
 
Kent Ref said:
The assistant is suspended while they investigate meanwhile a premiership player admits to making multiple bets but they play for their club team still.

Seems a bit odd.
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Technically speaking he isn't suspended, he just isn't being considered for games in competitions that PGMOL appoint to. So technically nothing stopping him from refereeing a game at step 3 or below, had he been suspended he would have been banned from all football activities.

Where a player is accused of serious assault they are immediately suspended from playing until there has been a hearing. I know it is a push to say that this was a serious assault, but it is obviously very high profile and very rare for incidents where match officials are accused of misconduct towards players. Taking him out of the limelight is also in the best interests of the official.

All very different to a player accused of gambling, that's a technical off-pitch offence that takes months if not years to collate the evidence and arrange a hearing. They can't suspend a player for that amount of time without a hearing.
 
GraemeS said:
You've literally laid out the fact that football works like that. So why's it fine for a referee to make a decision that results in a player being suspended just on their view, but it's abhorrent to apply that same process to a match official?

And it's perfectly possible for that process to impact players ability to pay rent/mortgages at lower levels - rumours are that a handful of star players at the higher level I run lines on earn up to £500 a match, and bans for SFP/VC will often be measured in weeks. A 3 week ban based purely on a match official saying he saw an elbow thrown could lose that player thousands.

Either we do apply burden of proof for footballing suspensions (in which case, we might actually need to take the ridiculous calls for bodycams seriously) or we don't. What we shouldn't be doing is selectively introducing a higher threshold of evidence due to an instinct to close ranks around a fellow match official.
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I'd accept a 3 game ban for the AR. Maybe 6 as he is an official. Anything more is excessive.

Games have to be refereed with a lower burden of proof or we would almost never be able to send anyone off.
This incident is not really part of the football match is it.
 
DJIC said:
I think CH has a challenge in explaining his actions. If he goes down the route that Robertson said an offensive remark which caused him to react in this manner then he is accountable for this reaction, regardless of how offensive the comment was. We as Match Officials are trained to move away from confrontation not towards it. Secondly, anyone who accidentally catches someone unintentionally with arm/elbow instinctively apologies immediately. So was it accidental?
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The comms audio will very likely be a big part of this investigation-both in terms of possibly picking up anything Robertson said to whether CH apologized.

I didn’t think about this until now, but wearing comms as much as I do in the US provides at least two other audio witnesses in an event. We almost always wear them for college matches, and a number of us also use them for high school games. If I’m the center and someone is abusing me, my microphone will pick that up for my crew to hear. That can come in really handy in an investigation if all three officials can say, “Yes, I heard that.”
 
I’ve been waiting to see it before commenting.

So, what I saw is that Robertson comes from in front of the AR so it is not a surprise that he is there. And as he goes past him the AR lashes out with the elbow.

We are held to high standards. I don’t expect him to work in the premier league again.
 
santa sangria said:
I’ve been waiting to see it before commenting.

So, what I saw is that Robertson comes from in front of the AR so it is not a surprise that he is there. And as he goes past him the AR lashes out with the elbow.

We are held to high standards. I don’t expect him to work in the premier league again.
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Think you may have slightly red tinted glasses on there 😂

If, and it is still a big if, he is charged and found guilty then it certainly won't be the end of his EPL career. The FA are in a dark place with referees as it is, ending a top level official's career when Mitrovic only got 5 extra games for a much more pre-meditated action might well be the staw that broke the camel's back.

Whether Robertson was in front of him or not, and I don't think he was, he was in the official's space and initiated contact. If the FA do go after a long ban for Hatzidakis then they also really have to charge Robertson.
 
I'd love to hear the audio of what Robertson was saying to him. Saying that, the AR should have shown greater control.
The way all the players are letting rip into the officials is disgraceful. The worrying thing is that grassroots players will just think this is the norm
 
santa sangria said:
So what I saw is that Robertson comes from in front of the AR so it is not a surprise that he is there. And as he goes past him the AR lashes out with the elbow.
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You must have watched a bad angle because you are way off.

Do you think it likely an AR just randomly elbows a player as he walks past him?
 
santa sangria said:
I’ve been waiting to see it before commenting.

So, what I saw is that Robertson comes from in front of the AR so it is not a surprise that he is there. And as he goes past him the AR lashes out with the elbow.

We are held to high standards. I don’t expect him to work in the premier league again.
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Sounds like you've seen the view from behind. The view from in front looks completely different
 
Redster said:
Sounds like you've seen the view from behind. The view from in front looks completely different
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Interested, got a link.

(No red tint here… but I’m presuming, if Robertson has said something, it was enough for the yellow he got, and not for a red, and the powers can’t/won’t revisit.

My point about the player being visible before the elbow surely isn’t in doubt from any angle.
 
RustyRef said:
Whether Robertson was in front of him or not, and I don't think he was, he was in the official's space and initiated contact. If the FA do go after a long ban for Hatzidakis then they also really have to charge Robertson.
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deusex said:
Do you think it likely an AR just randomly elbows a player as he walks past him?
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This is what @one was saying on the previous page - closing ranks and giving the official excuses.

We wouldn't do the same if this was two players. We'd be calling that an act of unnecessary brutality, no one would argue with a red and the only questions would be how many extra games. Trying to blame Robertson and go on larger points about behaviour in football is all just deflection - and it's an approach we wouldn't realistically indulge if not for an instinct to protect a match official.
 
Yep there does seem to be a feeling of trying to make excuses because he is an official but you still can't rule out it was accidental as the official may of said sorry and he did slightly put his hand out which one could interpret as an apology and if it was, I bet he wishes he made the apology gesture a whole lot more obvious than he did.

As for those who says would an official just randomly throw an elbow like that and you have to say of course not in normal circumstances but when the red mist descends then anything is possible, look at the Mexican ref who is currently banned and Tony Chaperon in France who got banned for a kick out at a player, it can happen. Hopefully in this case it was just accidental but the images does not look good for the linesman.
 
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