Level 4 Observer Reports

[Big Cat]

Totally agree with this post.
We have tools available to us: personality, stepped approach, sin bins, cautions, send offs.
We need to use them appropriately and show Mr O that we recognised threats to our match control, and we dealt with them in the right way.

Other benefits being..... the disgruntled mob will back off when the Ref has chosen their mouthpiece
I rarely overtly tell anyone they're wrong. To do so lays the foundations for the unwanted quarrell. Afterall, they may be right. But you've seen it, given it and that's it. We don't wanna deal the team a sixteen against an Ace, but the only choice they have is to make the most of the hand they're dealt. Otherwise, tipping the table up and demanding money back will only lead to defeat and a ban. Take another card and get on with it and they might still win

 

[Ben448844]

Had anymore observations @Big Cat ? How's the season going?

I've had an interesting experience of observation marks this season. First two games I had 72.4 and 72.2. First game 5 yellows and a red, including 1 major development point for not applying sin bin with an observer who everyone tells me marks low. Chuffed with my score as its my first ever l4 observation. 2nd game a local step 5 derby at the top end of the league. 4 yellows and a sin bin. 1 penalty given which was easy and I was right on the spot. Good game and I'm happy with my performance and score, no major developments. Last week 3rd v 1st in the step 5 league, big game. 2 yellows and a DOGSO pen + red (no attempt to challenge for the ball). Observer agreed with all KMDs. One major development for missing a player delaying the restart when he kicked the ball away in the 90th minute following a foul. I dont remember that but ive obviously missed it as the observer saw it and said he whacked it off the field of play so fair enough (i think ive turned away to check on a player whod gone down with cramp in the build up to the foul but had then got back up so missed it but im guessing really). We did the debrief and it felt like it went really well, it was all positive. Then I get the report and its a 71.6 so that's promotion probably gone. I'm genuinely not bothered about that as it's my first year as a 4 and I didn't even have a county league game (no league for 2 years due to covid) until last year so to go up again would just be to much too soon imo, and in reality I csnt do the travelling (but I'm competitive so still want to score well if possible).

I have found the standard of observations to be much better at level 4. The feedback genuinely useful and I've learnt from all 3 of them. Not a single point raised where I've disagreed to be honest both positive and negative.

 

[Big Cat]

Had anymore observations @Big Cat ? How's the season going?

I've had an interesting experience of observation marks this season. First two games I had 72.4 and 72.2. First game 5 yellows and a red, including 1 major development point for not applying sin bin with an observer who everyone tells me marks low. Chuffed with my score as its my first ever l4 observation. 2nd game a local step 5 derby at the top end of the league. 4 yellows and a sin bin. 1 penalty given which was easy and I was right on the spot. Good game and I'm happy with my performance and score, no major developments. Last week 3rd v 1st in the step 5 league, big game. 2 yellows and a DOGSO pen + red (no attempt to challenge for the ball). Observer agreed with all KMDs. One major development for missing a player delaying the restart when he kicked the ball away in the 90th minute following a foul. I dont remember that but ive obviously missed it as the observer saw it and said he whacked it off the field of play so fair enough (i think ive turned away to check on a player whod gone down with cramp in the build up to the foul but had then got back up so missed it but im guessing really). We did the debrief and it felt like it went really well, it was all positive. Then I get the report and its a 71.6 so that's promotion probably gone. I'm genuinely not bothered about that as it's my first year as a 4 and I didn't even have a county league game (no league for 2 years due to covid) until last year so to go up again would just be to much too soon imo, and in reality I csnt do the travelling (but I'm competitive so still want to score well if possible).

I have found the standard of observations to be much better at level 4. The feedback genuinely useful and I've learnt from all 3 of them. Not a single point raised where I've disagreed to be honest both positive and negative.

I injured a calf muscle in a Youth Floodlit game 4 weeks ago and came off injured
Only refereed two senior games (both observed), the last being on August 16th. Considering I only did one pre-season friendly, you could say I'm rusty! That said, I was bang on it in the two observed games (average 73.075), although the scoring is mad in my pool as that only leaves me 5/35 and the average is 72.4.... am sure the new system was not meant to produce those numbers
Anyway, calf muscle rehabilitation has gone very well and I'm back on the Floodlit League this week and have taken a Step 7 middle next Saturday
Thinking back, I don't think I gave promotion a thought when the season kicked off, but I've given myself an opportunity which has got my interest

 

[JamesL]

Then I get the report and its a 71.6 so that's promotion probably gone.

.

It's definitely not gone. I carried a 71.4 into my level 3 promotion. And your other marks are broadly in line with a couple of my observations.
Ave. On your pool last year was about 71.6 so your tracking above the average (unless it's changed drastically)

 

[Ben448844]

It's definitely not gone. I carried a 71.4 into my level 3 promotion. And your other marks are broadly in line with a couple of my observations.
Ave. On your pool last year was about 71.6 so your tracking above the average (unless it's changed drastically)

I'm in the top 40% and I'd be delighted to finish there.

But its not about promotions, I'm enjoying 4 and I'm notnsure id want to be a 3 yet. It's more about the scores in comparison to the feedback and the KMDs. To get them all correct and the only negative feedback in the game being a non yellow for DRS in the last minute, it feels harsh to be marked as under average. This may well of course be because the general performance of other refs is very good and therefore I jave nothing to complain about. Its more about my perspective. I'm certainly not appealing or anything like that, there's nothing to appeal against. It was just my anticipation based on the feedback that it would be an average mark a an absolute minimum that I think leads to a little bewilderment. But its not the end of the world I'm just trying to get my head around the process at 4

 

[ARF]

I remember a similar one a couple of years ago. Started the season with a 73, 72 and 72.05, I had an observer put on my game at the last minute (quite literally - he was scheduled to be watching someone else just up the road but the home team cried off that morning due to COVID, so he got switched to my game, and the first I knew was walking onto the pitch at 2:55!), and the debrief seemed fairly positive - penalty correct, one caution correct - and dev points for a missed caution for persistent, and for being too close to play, resulting in having to take evasive action twice, and getting hit by the ball once. Felt gutted when the report came through with a mark of 71.15, but there was nothing whatsoever in there that I could argue with! With the current marking scheme there are very fine margins, and it really does accentuate any mistakes you make.

 

[ChasObserverRefDeveloper]

I'm in the top 40% and I'd be delighted to finish there.

But its not about promotions, I'm enjoying 4 and I'm notnsure id want to be a 3 yet. It's more about the scores in comparison to the feedback and the KMDs. To get them all correct and the only negative feedback in the game being a non yellow for DRS in the last minute, it feels harsh to be marked as under average. This may well of course be because the general performance of other refs is very good and therefore I jave nothing to complain about. Its more about my perspective. I'm certainly not appealing or anything like that, there's nothing to appeal against. It was just my anticipation based on the feedback that it would be an average mark a an absolute minimum that I think leads to a little bewilderment. But its not the end of the world I'm just trying to get my head around the process at 4

Unable to comment about the one game, but I will comment that observers do not know the average mark in the area/league/county and do not wish to. We take each game as it comes in front of us, and the mark arrives on the bottom of the form once we complete all the sections.
We have a marking guide, regular training and reviews, and are there to assist match officials to improve.

 

[JamesL]

I'm in the top 40% and I'd be delighted to finish there.

But its not about promotions, I'm enjoying 4 and I'm notnsure id want to be a 3 yet. It's more about the scores in comparison to the feedback and the KMDs. To get them all correct and the only negative feedback in the game being a non yellow for DRS in the last minute, it feels harsh to be marked as under average. This may well of course be because the general performance of other refs is very good and therefore I jave nothing to complain about. Its more about my perspective. I'm certainly not appealing or anything like that, there's nothing to appeal against. It was just my anticipation based on the feedback that it would be an average mark a an absolute minimum that I think leads to a little bewilderment. But its not the end of the world I'm just trying to get my head around the process at 4

No worries mate. Just based on what you said, promotion being gone. It's far from it. That's all I was saying.
You have to get used to the disparity in marks. A below the average mark is not a below average performance. Like refs, there are good observers, bad observers and some sit in between. Some are good at recognising the little things that push up the mark, some aren't. And the way you cut through it is, it's the same for every referee. That ref will see potentially 20-30 referees on your pool who'll be marked similarly.
Finally, an average performance is 70. That's where every box is standard expected. You'll get a 70. So whilst its below the current average for the pool it's not saying that you were below average, if that makes you feel any better. Id only be worried with anything starting with a six.

 

[Ben448844]

Unable to comment about the one game, but I will comment that observers do not know the average mark in the area/league/county and do not wish to. We take each game as it comes in front of us, and the mark arrives on the bottom of the form once we complete all the sections.
We have a marking guide, regular training and reviews, and are there to assist match officials to improve.

100% and to be fair I learnt all that on here previously which is great.

I'm definitely not criticising the observer. He gave me a couple of great points about pre game stuff that I will take on board going forward and was just a good bloke in General who clearly knows his stuff. No problem with the observation at all.

 

[Ben448844]

No worries mate. Just based on what you said, promotion being gone. It's far from it. That's all I was saying.
You have to get used to the disparity in marks. A below the average mark is not a below average performance. Like refs, there are good observers, bad observers and some sit in between. Some are good at recognising the little things that push up the mark, some aren't. And the way you cut through it is, it's the same for every referee. That ref will see potentially 20-30 referees on your pool who'll be marked similarly.
Finally, an average performance is 70. That's where every box is standard expected. You'll get a 70. So whilst its below the current average for the pool it's not saying that you were below average, if that makes you feel any better. Id only be worried with anything starting with a six.

Good stuff as always pal but I'm honestly cool with it all. I'm a pretty relaxed guy in everything. I'm just trying to understand things more and compare observations/feedback as and when I get them. Perhaps I struggle for context on here but I think promotion would be very difficult now but that is not a bad thing. It's a big jump from the levels I've done before due to lack of County League stuff (covid). I think it would be too much too soon if I went up in all honesty and I'm not sure I'd enjoy that.

 

[Big Cat]

Unable to comment about the one game, but I will comment that observers do not know the average mark in the area/league/county and do not wish to. We take each game as it comes in front of us, and the mark arrives on the bottom of the form once we complete all the sections.
We have a marking guide, regular training and reviews, and are there to assist match officials to improve.

Why is there such a wild disparity between scores in different pools then? Three Counties must have an amazing crop of Refs (which it doesn't)

 

[JamesL]

Good stuff as always pal but I'm honestly cool with it all. I'm a pretty relaxed guy in everything. I'm just trying to understand things more and compare observations/feedback as and when I get them. Perhaps I struggle for context on here but I think promotion would be very difficult now but that is not a bad thing. It's a big jump from the levels I've done before due to lack of County League stuff (covid). I think it would be too much too soon if I went up in all honesty and I'm not sure I'd enjoy that.

That's fair mate and good on you.
Sounds like you are doing well and perhaps another season or so you will feel ready to make the step up.

 

[ChasObserverRefDeveloper]

Why is there such a wild disparity between scores in different pools then? Three Counties must have an amazing crop of Refs (which it doesn't)

The FA are looking at disparaties in some areas.
A few years ago, more localised areas tended to be higher scorers when compared with (e. g.) my local Supply League, drawing clubs, referees and observers from a variety of counties plus the Army and Navy, so there is less familiarity.
One change this season is that an observer can see a referee a maximum of twice in a season, which has created issues and rethinks in the more remote areas.
As discussed recently on here, random checks are carried out on observers' reports, average marks are prepared for each observer and league, and high marks are reviewed automatically.

 

[Jevon Swinscoe]

Going back to the original post.

What would marks would be considered as good when working as an Assistant?

 

[RustyRef]

Going back to the original post.

What would marks would be considered as good when working as an Assistant?

Same answer as for the referees. The observers are expected to just fill the form in based on what they have seen, if they have timed evidence in a competency they can give you 7.5, if they don't it is 7.0, if they have significant development advice it will be 6.5.

I think assistant marks tend to be higher than referees, mainly because it is very difficult for observers to praise or criticise offside decisions if they aren't level. They have been times where I've thought an offside was wrong, but unless I am 100% sure I'm not pinging them for it if they are level and I'm on the halfway line.

 

[Jevon Swinscoe]

Same answer as for the referees. The observers are expected to just fill the form in based on what they have seen, if they have timed evidence in a competency they can give you 7.5, if they don't it is 7.0, if they have significant development advice it will be 6.5.

I think assistant marks tend to be higher than referees, mainly because it is very difficult for observers to praise or criticise offside decisions if they aren't level. They have been times where I've thought an offside was wrong, but unless I am 100% sure I'm not pinging them for it if they are level and I'm on the halfway line.

I never knew this so thanks.

Was quite happy with my mark as I thought I had a good game. Was very good to see an Outstanding in there!

 

[RustyRef]

I never knew this so thanks.

Was quite happy with my mark as I thought I had a good game. Was very good to see an Outstanding in there!

It comes down to a large percentage of AR's marks coming down to offside, rightly as that is their biggest decision. Usually the observer will be sat close to the halfway line, so if the AR makes a slight error on an offside near the halfway line the observer will possibly see it. If the decision is on the edge of the penalty area it would need to be a much more obvious error for the observer to see it from that angle and be sure it was an error.

Where you should be more worried as an AR is when you have an observer that doesn't sit in the stand, or at grounds when there is no stand on the touchline. There's one step 5 ground down here where the only stand is behind a goal, some observers sit in it but I don't think that is credible so I spend a half behind each AR. That means I am pretty much level with the offside decision so I can be a lot more confident that I am correct and the AR is wrong.