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Joel Veltman throws sportsmanship out window...

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USB is so ambiguous that we can certainly apply it to situations that aren't clearly covered in the laws but deserve it.
His actions are akin to the 'verbal deception' issues, IMO. The actions are so grossly against the spirit of the game that the referee needs to figure out if there's anything in the LOTG permitting action.

Good thing there is - and precedent to boot. IMO the referee definitely got this one wrong.
 
A Freethinker said:
Hmmmmm....whilst unsporting the referee didn't blow and was playing advantage..to me play on and a slap round the ear from the green players manager for not playing to the whistle! Whilst unsporting and an absolute Kxob, I don't see how you could caution for this....although willing to be convinced.
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i would put it in the same category as a player announcing at a drop ball that he will give the ball to his opponent and not doing it.
 
David Sutton said:
So why does the LOTG say so as quoted by @Nalbi in http://www.refchat.co.uk/threads/joel-veltman-throws-sportsmanship-out-window.9180/#post-86827? He's quoted straight from the book.
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It doesn't say that - it says until after the match has ended and specifically includes for instance, showing cards during KFPM. Since KFPM do not take place until after the match has ended, it is clear that the end of the match is not the cut-off point for issuing cards. Although not specifically stated in these terms, the example of issuing cards during KFPM seems to indicate that while the referee and the players are still on the field, the referee can still issue cards even though the match has ended.
 
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Just throwing it out there....also perfectly plausible to stop play for the injury here if you don't want to be pulling the plastic out ;-)
 
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pankaye said:
i would put it in the same category as a player announcing at a drop ball that he will give the ball to his opponent and not doing it.
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Sorry not convinced...technically he has done nothing wrong, if the defender is stupid enough to fall for it then it's the defenders fault. When a team kicks a ball out and the other team doesn't retrun the ball to them do you all stop play and book the person taking the throw or the next player that kicks the ball and doesn't return it? Neither I suspect as they have done nothing wrong in law..whilst I disapprove of the behaviour I am still not convinced that you could sell an USB, IDFK or YC for this action. Interested in @Brian Hamilton opinion on this as an assessor?
 
Peter Grove said:
It doesn't say that - it says until after the match has ended and specifically includes for instance, showing cards during KFPM. Since KFPM do not take place until after the match has ended, it is clear that the end of the match is not the cut-off point for issuing cards. Although not specifically stated in these terms, the example of issuing cards during KFPM seems to indicate that while the referee and the players are still on the field, the referee can still issue cards even though though the match has ended.
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Peter, you are obviously a referee with much greater experience and knowledge than me, and I mean that as a compliment, therefore, can you explain to me why there's distinction in the two clauses of the law?
IMO the first clause - "has the authority to take disciplinary action from entering the field of play for the pre-match inspection until leaving the field of play after the match ends (including kicks from the penalty mark)." - allows us, as referees to take disciplinary action until we leave the field of play. That's clear to me what that means - I have authority until everyone has left the FOP where good behaviour and respect still expected at the conclusion of the match and save your frustration until the safety of the dressing room. Now, with the second clause - "has the power to show yellow or red cards from entering the field of play at the start of the match until after the match has ended, including during the half-time interval, extra time and kicks from the penalty mark" - why the separation? In my eyes "match had ended" and "leaving the field of play" are separate events. They happen at different times and are not the same. Therefore, any player who "breaks the laws" between my signal to end the match and leaving the FOP can be sanctioned in that interim period but not shown cards. That's how I read it personally. Plus what benefit does it serve to show a card in these situations? For me, you'd simply inform the player (and his team management) that he would be the subject of a misconduct report.

I'm not looking for an argument, just some clarity and reasoned thought.
 
Ok....my take on this......play on. Opponents need to learn to play to the whistle.......

Might have a quiet word in passing not to make a habit out of it.......

It's his own player down injured, referee has given them the advantage......he hasn't made any obvious movement to kick the ball out of play.....if he'd turned round and feinted to kick the ball out then made his run down the line, maybe that's a different outcome.......but he didn't.

A caution there is just being over officious......
 
For all of those saying 'no offence' - I'm assuming there some types of verbal deception you wouldn't permit. What's different here?
 
CapnBloodbeard said:
For all of those saying 'no offence' - I'm assuming there some types of verbal deception you wouldn't permit. What's different here?
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If a player is verbal distracted...then it's an offence...can't hear if the player says anything..like player down or simply points, if he points and the defender turns and looks then the defender is an idiot...for example striker runs into an area pointing where he wants the ball played..defender then doesn't follow him as he turns and runs in a different direction, are you blowing the whistle and cautioning him..the player points (to the best of my knowledge) the defender looks..defender a dumxxss no whistle play on! I may however...blow and call it back as player lying on ground because the winger is being a smartxss but no offence IMHO happens.
 
I have a feeling that a card for unspecified USB might actually be the best outcome for the player....otherwise he's liable to find himself involved in an injury in a different capacity!

A card and a clear signal from the referee that this is unacceptable will help match control significantly and can just about be justified in law, even if it is a little tenuous.
 
GraemeS said:
I have a feeling that a card for unspecified USB might actually be the best outcome for the player....otherwise he's liable to find himself involved in an injury in a different capacity!

A card and a clear signal from the referee that this is unacceptable will help match control significantly and can just about be justified in law, even if it is a little tenuous.
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Its not "a little tenuous" it's a complete fabrication.
 
A Freethinker said:
When a team kicks a ball out and the other team doesn't retrun the ball to them do you all stop play and book the person taking the throw or the next player that kicks the ball and doesn't return it?IDFK or YC for this action. Interested in @Brian Hamilton opinion on this as an assessor?
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i wouldn't book the person. unless he had verbally indicated to me and the opponents that he will return it to them in which case i'll most definitely book them.
 
David Sutton said:
Peter, you are obviously a referee with much greater experience and knowledge than me, and I mean that as a compliment, therefore, can you explain to me why there's distinction in the two clauses of the law?
IMO the first clause - "has the authority to take disciplinary action from entering the field of play for the pre-match inspection until leaving the field of play after the match ends (including kicks from the penalty mark)." - allows us, as referees to take disciplinary action until we leave the field of play. That's clear to me what that means - I have authority until everyone has left the FOP where good behaviour and respect still expected at the conclusion of the match and save your frustration until the safety of the dressing room. Now, with the second clause - "has the power to show yellow or red cards from entering the field of play at the start of the match until after the match has ended, including during the half-time interval, extra time and kicks from the penalty mark" - why the separation? In my eyes "match had ended" and "leaving the field of play" are separate events. They happen at different times and are not the same. Therefore, any player who "breaks the laws" between my signal to end the match and leaving the FOP can be sanctioned in that interim period but not shown cards. That's how I read it personally. Plus what benefit does it serve to show a card in these situations? For me, you'd simply inform the player (and his team management) that he would be the subject of a misconduct report.

I'm not looking for an argument, just some clarity and reasoned thought.
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I see your point but I think the difference is unintended. "Disciplinary action" here must surely mean showing red and yellow cards as a player or manager can be subject to a misconduct report for things that go on well after the game has ended. If a player abuses you in the car park after the game you can send in a misconduct report but you can't show him a card.

So to turn your question round: if your reading is correct, what is the specific disciplinary action that can be taken after the final whistle but cannot be taken once players have left the field?
 
I showed a yellow card recently after the final whistle - players came up to me post match and were going through the usual handshake routine, but one guy wouldn't stop arguing a decision that had gone against his team about 5 minutes before FT. I told him to drop it, but he wouldn't, so I pulled out my card and showed it.

Had the desired effect as he turned and stormed off - and I'm not sure saying "I'll be reporting this as misconduct" would have got the message across quite as clearly. Players know what a yellow card means, wheras a vague threat of "misconduct" doesn't have the same obvious effect. Cards post-match are still a useful tool IMO.
 
My thoughts are this:-
  1. You arrive at the FOP, get kitted out, exchange teamsheets and go out onto the pitch for a warm up. As you jog around the perimeter, you come to the goals and check the nets. While doing so, the GK scrapes his studs across the goal area to mark the middle of the area. You've seen it and you have the right to take disciplinary action. Show a yellow card? Do you even have cards on you at this stage? Personally, I'd inform the player he will be cautioned and explain why and when you will show him a yellow card. I don't have the power to show a yellow card at this stage but I can take disciplinary action therefore, after we've entered the FOP in readiness for KO, I'll walk up to the GK and show him a yellow card for all to see.
  2. You've blown your whistle to finish the game (at FT, at ET or PKFTM it doesn't really matter). A player refuses to shake hands - so what? That's just a lack of respect and isn't obligatory. A captain says "don't shake hands with him, he's crap" - call the captain over and tell him you will report the comment as misconduct but what purpose does showing a yellow card serve here? None IMO, the game's over but disciplinary action can still be taken. If it is a 2nd caution, would you show a red card, too? Just write the misconduct report with the facts. Besides, if you brandish cards will it affect your match control afterwards or will it only serve to bring it to the attention of the calmly departing players? If the captain decides abuse makes him feel better, then simply reiterate you are reporting it as misconduct, again. Might even be two reports for two separate incidents. Is showing a red card allowed? The law doesn't appear to say so because the game has finished. Can disciplinary action be taken? Yes, because we haven't left the FOP yet.
  3. In the tunnel immediately prior to the entering the FOP, two players decide to fight each other. You don't show red cards stage because you haven't enter the FOP yet. You do however, prevent those two players from taking part, allow the teams to promote a named substitute (but not replace them on the bench) and write a misconduct report afterwards.
The start and end points of both statements in the law are different. Allowing you to take disciplinary action overlaps the period where you show yellow or red cards. For me leaving the FOP comes after the end of the match and therefore, no cards should be shown.
 
GraemeS said:
I showed a yellow card recently after the final whistle - players came up to me post match and were going through the usual handshake routine, but one guy wouldn't stop arguing a decision that had gone against his team about 5 minutes before FT. I told him to drop it, but he wouldn't, so I pulled out my card and showed it.

Had the desired effect as he turned and stormed off - and I'm not sure saying "I'll be reporting this as misconduct" would have got the message across quite as clearly. Players know what a yellow card means, wheras a vague threat of "misconduct" doesn't have the same obvious effect. Cards post-match are still a useful tool IMO.
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with the benefit of teamsheets with names and numbers that match, issuing yellows and reds after the final whistle is a fine idea for me... however, with no teamsheets i'm sure there will be more instances of players refusing to give their names, which means your filing it as misconduct anyway? ive not had either situation yet so i cant say from personal experience
 
richard ramjane said:
with the benefit of teamsheets with names and numbers that match, issuing yellows and reds after the final whistle is a fine idea for me... however, with no teamsheets i'm sure there will be more instances of players refusing to give their names, which means your filing it as misconduct anyway? ive not had either situation yet so i cant say from personal experience
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Oh yes, that's definitely true - I was lucky in this situation that I didn't have to get his name due to having teamsheets, not sure I would necessarily have handled it the same if I didn't. But flashing a quick card worked there to defuse something that was close to becoming a shouting match. Had I not shown the card, it's possible his anger would have increased to the point where a red card would have been more appropriate than yellow?
 
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