A&H

DOGSO handball, red. Then loss of control

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ladbroke8745

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I have double checked the laws (despite being confident with them, but no harm in checking) and I still think I got the decision right based on what I read.

Player has a shot, defender on the line with his arms out, moved slightly towards the ball, denies a goal.
Red card. Correct?

I gave a red and players moaned you can not get a red and a penalty but my understanding is that it must be an attempt to win the ball, ie a challenge. Handball on the line still constitutes a red if I'm not mistaken.

I then got a gobful of abuse from a player who got a card for his dissent.

Penalty taken. Saved. But 4 defending players massively encroach. Retake ordered. Cue mass complaints about me trying to help the home team win.
I call captain over and tell him reason, with those that encroached, why it's a retake. He told me it's silly but understands (I'm confused, it's either silly or not).
Retake kicked, keeper saved again, same player as first offence encroached again massively. Having already been cautioned and failed to adhere to warning for his original encroachment, I sent him packing with a 2nd yellow for persistently infringing the laws of the game. This is where I may have ****ed up. Should I have issued a 2nd yellow or ordered a third retake without a card?
Cue mass arguing again.
Match control seemingly being lost a bit here, third kick retake, again failed to score but this time it's high and wide. Goal kick.

For the next 5-10 minutes I give literally everything to regain authority and control and added a further 2 cautions.
Team with 9 men gave me a 70 (it's on their sheet they gave at the end of the game due to the wet weather he had to rewrite it).

I know it could be one of those you had to be there kind of things, but would anyone have done differently?
 
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The downgrading of a red card was never intended for or applied to DOGSO handball. So you are clear there.

The second yellow, its your call, yellow for persistent is justified but under the circumstance perhaps harsh. A retake would have been enough of a punishment for him but if I was assessing I would have accepted a caution for PO.

The third miss would have slightly helped you in regaining control (depending on the score). Well done for sticking to your guns, doing what you thought was right without being influenced by players.
 
ladbroke8745 said:
I have double checked the laws (despite being confident with them, but no harm in checking) and I still think I got the decision right based on what I read.

Player has a shot, defender on the line with his arms out, moved slightly towards the ball, denies a goal.
Red card. Correct?

I gave a red and players moaned you can not get a red and a penalty but my understanding is that it must be an attempt to win the ball, ie a challenge. Handball on the line still constitutes a red if I'm not mistaken.

I then got a gobful of abuse from a player who got a card for his dissent.

Penalty taken. Saved. But 4 defending players massively encroach. Retake ordered. Cue mass complaints about me trying to help the home team win.
I call captain over and tell him reason, with those that encroached, why it's a retake. He told me it's silly but understands (I'm confused, it's either silly or not).
Retake kicked, keeper saved again, same player as first offence encroached again massively. Having already been cautioned and failed to adhere to warning for his original encroachment, I sent him packing with a 2nd yellow for persistently infringing the laws of the game. This is where I may have ****ed up. Should I have issued a 2nd yellow or ordered a third retake without a card?
Cue mass arguing again.
Match control seemingly being lost a bit here, third kick retake, again failed to score but this time it's high and wide. Goal kick.

For the next 5-10 minutes I give literally everything to regain authority and control and added a further 2 cautions.
Team with 9 men gave me a 70 (it's on their sheet they gave at the end of the game due to the wet weather he had to rewrite it).

I know it could be one of those you had to be there kind of things, but would anyone have done differently?
Click to expand...

No requirement to caution under Law 14 (unless it’s the GK)......so think you’ve got this badly wrong.
What was the players first caution for?
How many offences had he committed, and in what time frame, between first and second caution?

Not surprised you lost credibility and 70 is actually a reasonable mark from a team with 2 sent off.

Spot on for the DOGSO(H) though......
 
Player dissents for the penalty decision. and is cautioned.

Same player encroaches in the taking of the said penalty and is warned.

Penalty is retaken and same player again encroaches. He is cautioned for PO and sent packing for second caution.

Am I correct in this sequence?
 
Dismissal - correct
Caution - correct
2nd caution - I'm questioning the justification. I'm stretching it at dissent by action.

Think you got the second caution wrong.
 
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one said:
Player dissents for the penalty decision. and is cautioned.

Same player encroaches in the taking of the said penalty and is warned.

Penalty is retaken and same player again encroaches. He is cautioned for PO and sent packing for second caution.

Am I correct in this sequence?
Click to expand...

That is exactly how it is.
It's not like it was a close encroachment. He might as well had been taking it he was that close.
He ignored my chat about the encroachment and done it again.
 
ladbroke8745 said:
That is exactly how it is.
It's not like it was a close encroachment. He might as well had been taking it he was that close.
He ignored my chat about the encroachment and done it again.
Click to expand...
Ignore the Club Mark. Hardly likely to be popular in the circumstances!
@one seems to have understood the order of proceedings, so no mistakes as such
Not sure about the higher level refs, but I only tend to penalize encroachment, if the team guilty of the offence benefits from it (e.g. attacker jumps the gun and gets the rebound or defender gains an advantage to clear a rebound). Otherwise, most penalties would end in with a retake
 
From what i read......

100% correct with the DOGSO and pen

and for me, what happens next.....bear in mind you had to be there.......am not retaking the pk end of
 
I also think that it has to be outrageous for a retake... but fair enough... if you’ve got 4 defs 12 yds out when the penno is taken... retake is good.

Second time though... hmmm... especially at grassroots.

What did you do to set up the penalty?
I think it is super smart to walk the whole line of players, give them the finger at the box line, get their feet behind, tell them all to wait... even to remind them not to risk a retake... and after you blow... still look at them, even point, as the run up starts...

Next time, could you be more proactive?
 
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santa sangria said:
I think it is super smart to walk the whole line of players, give them the finger at the box line, get their feet behind, tell them all to wait... even to remind them not to risk a retake... and after you blow... still look at them, even point, as the run up starts...
Click to expand...
Works a treat. They don't dare come in when you're staring at them. Takes some attention away from the keeper but not a problem if you have NARs.
 
JH said:
Works a treat. They don't dare come in when you're staring at them. Takes some attention away from the keeper but not a problem if you have NARs.
Click to expand...
There is a downside to publicly warning against encroachment; either team will hold you to task for minor transgressions. I'd rather penalize advantage gained by encroachment, than back myself into a corner with words I've no intention of following through
 
You also when working alone can counter act this situation.... yes 50% will call it a cop out, the other 50% might say its sensible refereeing
You cant look 2 ways at once..so , how can you watch players encroach AND the gk AND the goal line at the same time....
you cant, and nobody in the world can. So, focus on the goal line, and, at a push the gk and if you think you are sub human, the folk running in as well
was there folk in the box? by what you are saying, yes, there was. should you compromise the managment of the game for it......imo.. NO

unless u rather the ball hits bar, bounces down over line, but you cant give it, as you are watching 2 defenders..
 
Big Cat said:
There is a downside to publicly warning against encroachment; either team will hold you to task for minor transgressions. I'd rather penalize advantage gained by encroachment, than back myself into a corner with words I've no intention of following through
Click to expand...
I don't say what will happen, just not to come in;)
 
... so let’s tell the rest of the story...

Before the game:
To NARs: GK encroachment has to be extreme 3+ m /running forward at the kick to flag it, otherwise I can decide as I am watching.

Before every penalty.
To the taker: on the whistle. No surprises.
To the GK; reminder to stay on the line because a retake is mand. YC
To the players: walk and point. Every time.

Reality is the GK will still move off his line 1m, 2-5 players will be 1-2m inside the box when the kick is taken. That’s football. But by being proactive IMHO you are much less likely to have to deal with a GK 2.5m out, or 5 players 4m in... you are much less likely to face the grey zone. And if it is grey zone or worse you can sell it easily because they have been warned.

At least this is what I see from the best refs on TV and in the flesh. Every time.
 
In terms of encroachment, I’m getting into position and my main focus is the goal line. From the standard position, you have the kick taker in your peripherals. If I spot another player around the kick taker as the ball is struck and he gains and advantage, then it’s encroachment. If he’s not in my peripheral, and then taps it into the net from a rebound, it’s a goal. Ok, he may have encroached but with one set of eyes and 3 things to focus on, I’m going with the most important.

You don’t want a Zidane v Italy penalty scenario where the ball comes down of the crossbar, behind the line and back out and you’re staring at the edge of box to see who stepped in early
 
...you don't need to look to the GK until the player is about to kick the ball (if you have a problem with players encroaching)...

...and if the ball comes off the woodwork, watch for the double touch by the kicker... I've missed one of those in as assessed promotion game!
 
“Being proactive” just draws attention to it. If you are going to ignore encroachment then don’t draw attention to it, players will rightly point out what you just said when a player makes half a step into the area.

Why do you think defenders make such a big fuss before a penalty? To give the penalty taker time to get nervous, now the referee is taking 30 seconds + to manage something that manages itself.
 
Great job in my mind and only could hope I would do the same thing in the same situation. If the player, already on a one caution, encroaches that much on a penalty kick, receives a warning, than promptly does it again, that player is asking for a second caution and a send off.

As positioning goes. I trust my AR for the goal being scored and how far the keeper comes off the line. I always look at the kicker and the other players crashing the penalty kick. I do not look at the goal until after the kick is taken and there is no serious encroachment.

Again, hats off!
 
Everything except the second caution seems good to me, and even then I think it is harsh, rather than 'wrong', I personally wouldn't be cautioning a player for persistent infringement after one warning, especially at a penalty kick as i'd just keep re-taking it until they get the message.

As for general positioning for a penalty, on my own I stand inline with the penalty spot and move quite far back so that I can see all of the players without having to move my eye/head too much. Of course, my primary focus is the player taking the kick and the goal keeper, but I can see the players on the edge of the area in my peripheral vision, and if someone encroaches enough for it to be really obvious then I take action as necessary.
 
Interesting how many people on here say 'I only penalise advantage gained by encroachment', yet so many also complain when players encroach by 6 yards at a PK on a televised Match! Hmm......

Anyway, with the 2nd caution - the game has already gone to the crapper, you've practically lost control and respect, everyone is upset and you're the focus of everyone's attention.

So now, you want to try to see if there's anything you can do to pull yourself back away from the spotlight without compromising your job. What can you do to deflate the situation?

And this may well mean that when you have the option of giving or not giving a card (as opposed to a 'must-give' card) - especially one leading to a red card - that you might need to really push for keeping the player on the park. Of course it depends - you of course don't want to do that if that player being on the pitch is hurting your match control.

But my point is, you've given a red, a PK, and a 2nd retake. While you're not wrong in the card, it probably didn't HAVE to be given. By giving it, the situation is continuing to escalate. And bear in mind that a retake of a PK is already a significant 'punishment'. It's actually a huge punishment.

I probably wouldn't think about cautioning the player until the 3rd time. At this point you might have pulled him aside with the captain individually, explained that the next time you HAVE to card him, and ask the captain's help to keep him on the field.

I'm assuming these were fairly significant encroachments (not just a matter of a step or two).

So while you weren't wrong, it sounds like you had the choice of 2 paths there.

And it's rough - because ultimately that player has created the situation that led to the crap you copped for the rest of the game, but nobody ever sees it like that :)
 
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