A&H

Junior/Youth Blocked view

J

JMA

New Member
Grassroots Referee
I’m after advice on incidents in a Youth game I've had recently.

Now I probably already know the answer but I'll post it anyway.
U15's game, Away team have only turned up with 10x players. Home team have raced into a convincing lead before the incident happens.

Away team counter quickly, the keeper has come rushing out of goal but the attacker gets there first and gets a shot off. Sounds like it's hit the GK arm outside the area and it would be a DOGSO and a red card which would even the teams up. But as I'm keeping up with play I've had 2 of the biggest, stockiest defenders block my view so I couldn't see it. Assistant was a parent who kept quiet so I had to let it go.

But the reaction from 2 of the Away players are "Am I f*****ng blind". I warned them both because I didn't want the game to become ruined by sin bins or RC and taking them down to 8 players.

Explained to the away coaches afterwards that I just couldn't see it and they accepted it. Just after a bit of advice to build my confidence on the decisions as I've only done a handful of games so far and all younger ages prior to this
 
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JMA said:
Apologies to jump on Josh's thread but after advice on incidents in a Youth game I've had recently.

Now I probably already know the answer but I'll post it anyway.
U15's game, Away team have only turned up with 10x players. Home team have raced into a convincing lead before the incident happens.

Away team counter quickly, the keeper has come rushing out of goal but the attacker gets there first and gets a shot off. Sounds like it's hit the GK arm outside the area and it would be a DOGSO and a red card which would even the teams up. But as I'm keeping up with play I've had 2 of the biggest, stockiest defenders block my view so I couldn't see it. Assistant was a parent who kept quiet so I had to let it go.

But the reaction from 2 of the Away players are "Am I f*****ng blind". I warned them both because I didn't want the game to become ruined by sin bins or RC and taking them down to 8 players.

Explained to the away coaches afterwards that I just couldn't see it and they accepted it. Just after a bit of advice to build my confidence on the decisions as I've only done a handful of games so far and all younger ages prior to this
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Dissent and OFFINABUS are dissent and OFFINABUS - regardless of how many players a team has.

You shouldn't be expected to tolerate players shouting things like that at you (particularly 14/15 year olds), so sanction as usual.

The coaches sounded fairly supportive of the fact you couldn't see it, so I imagine it'd have been a problem for the players who've made their team even lighter rather than you (although hindsight is wonderful).


The best advice I can give you for building confidence with sin bins etc. is to just do it.
Do it once and it's not something new, it's just a regular old sin bin.

I've been a bit hesitant to sin bin players, or caution coaches for dissent too, did it once and now have no issues with pulling the cards out.

Ultimately no-one has a right to abuse you for any perceived injustice.

Keep going and learning!
 
JMA said:
But the reaction from 2 of the Away players are "Am I f*****ng blind". I warned them both because I didn't want the game to become ruined by sin bins or RC and taking them down to 8 players.
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That'd be a sin-bin all day long for me tbh. I know they're already down to 10 men but that's so far over the line at any grassroots level, especially at U15. I probably rely on the stepped approach a bit too much but had my first sin bin this week - one U18s player loudly dissenting a clear push in the back, tried to politely speak to him, he said something else so I called him over to say "that's enough" and then he said (loudly) "but it's every decision" (ironic, as I'd awarded them a penalty as well as numerous free kicks in attacking positions) and started walking away so that was that.

As for having your view blocked, I'll leave it to more experienced refs on here to give you some advice on that, though I'm sure you've already thought about it and found something you could do differently next time.
 
We've all been caught out by players obstructing our path, with experience you will be able to identify those key moments as they are about to happen and position yourself accordingly. Being honest in those situations clearly communicating that you can only call what you see let's everyone know but doesn't always stop the dissent. As others have said, don't let the numbers influence you when making sin-bin decisions or red card ones, it will always come back to haunt you.
 
JMA said:
I’m after advice on incidents in a Youth game I've had recently.

Now I probably already know the answer but I'll post it anyway.
U15's game, Away team have only turned up with 10x players. Home team have raced into a convincing lead before the incident happens.

Away team counter quickly, the keeper has come rushing out of goal but the attacker gets there first and gets a shot off. Sounds like it's hit the GK arm outside the area and it would be a DOGSO and a red card which would even the teams up. But as I'm keeping up with play I've had 2 of the biggest, stockiest defenders block my view so I couldn't see it. Assistant was a parent who kept quiet so I had to let it go.

But the reaction from 2 of the Away players are "Am I f*****ng blind". I warned them both because I didn't want the game to become ruined by sin bins or RC and taking them down to 8 players.

Explained to the away coaches afterwards that I just couldn't see it and they accepted it. Just after a bit of advice to build my confidence on the decisions as I've only done a handful of games so far and all younger ages prior to this
Click to expand...
Best L3 Ref I've been out with gave a PK for a FT he couldn't see
If he hadn't have given it, it would've been time to assist as it was clearly a PK

Point being, he didn't need a clear view. He took in ALL the evidence and gave it on instinct as he knew the game expected it
 
My view is that if you don’t see it, and you don’t have AR’s to confirm it, then you can’t give it. This is especially so for incidents involving high consequence. Curved runs and angles are your friend here. Get side on (when you can), push wider than the play and try to avoid running directly behind play. Be conscious when your view is blocked and try to move to a better position. Try to avoid standing stationary or central for long periods of time. Over time, you learn which angles are best depending on the direction and speed of play. As others have said, don’t accept the dissent which undermines your authority and confidence. We all miss things from time to time so don’t let it trouble you too much. It sounds like your communication to the coaches was honest and credible which is a positive!
 
I’m going to add one other crucial thing here. Cut yourself some slack, and don’t beat yourself up.

At some point in every season you referee for something like this is going to happen. The advice above is great, but…

For all the curved runs and perfect viewpoints and angles you get yourself to, at some stage a player is going to take a step to the left or the right at the exact moment an incident happens. And likely appeal for it too!

That’s when you need the mental fortitude to remind yourself you did all you could but sometimes, it’s just going to go against you.
 
RefRyanAus said:
My view is that if you don’t see it, and you don’t have AR’s to confirm it, then you can’t give it
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This is only true for Violent Conduct. Probably SFP also
WRT PKs, if it sounds like a PK, smells like a PK and the game obviously expects a PK, I'm giving a PK even if I haven't seen exactly what it looked like.
I wouldn't expect this of a referee with less than say... 3 to 5 years experience in the game. But ultimately, decisions are a percentage game and I'm willing to take a punt if necessary to maximise my percentages

I recently had a player knock the ball out the keeper's hands
I didn't see it, but gave a FK on the basis that I knew what had happened without seeing it
Maybe 3 years ago, I would've had carnage on my hands as I too had the mindset of needing to see something to give it
 
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Big Cat said:
This is only true for Violent Conduct. Probably SFP also
WRT PKs, if it sounds like a PK, smells like a PK and the game obviously expects a PK, I'm giving a PK even if I haven't seen exactly what it looked like.
I wouldn't expect this of a referee with less than say... 3 to 5 years experience in the game. But ultimately, decisions are a percentage game and I'm willing to take a punt if necessary to maximise my percentages

I recently had a player knock the ball out the keeper's hands
I didn't see it, but gave an IDFK on the basis that I knew what had happened without seeing it
Maybe 3 years ago, I would've had carnage on my hands as I too had the mindset of needing to see something to give it
Click to expand...
Great advice. I've been caught out by not giving because I couldn't say I'd 100% "seen", but this has probably caused more issues than giving the decision. All part of the fun of trying to balance what is undeniable and "seen" and what is expected.
 
benmc said:
Great advice. I've been caught out by not giving because I couldn't say I'd 100% "seen", but this has probably caused more issues than giving the decision. All part of the fun of trying to balance what is undeniable and "seen" and what is expected.
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Quite often, what you see is not the same thing as what everyone else sees, so why rely solely on eyesight anyway!?
 
If a player accuses my of blindness, especially while using profanity, they're done for the day. No need to insult the blind community by including me among their ranks.

That being said, I agree with many of the comments. You don't need to see something; you can give it based on your perception of the situation. You don't have VAR and there's a good chance the match you're doing isn't even recorded so it's your word (and the words of the many others who are reacting) against theirs. Remember the 2010 World Cup: Webb didn't give it because he didn't see it and it remains one of his greatest errors and, I think, regrets. Sometimes the players on the field, through body language and sometimes protestation, will tell you what you need to know.

Additionally, why was your positioning such that you were blocked out? Could you have taken a wider angle of view? Could you have come narrower and more central to get a view of the impending challenge? During these counter attacks we are tempted to just sprint as fast as we can to get proximity, but we should remember that it is angle of view that allows us to make the game-critical decisions. Prioritize your angle and then get on your bike and ride.
 
Big Cat said:
This is only true for Violent Conduct. Probably SFP also
WRT PKs, if it sounds like a PK, smells like a PK and the game obviously expects a PK, I'm giving a PK even if I haven't seen exactly what it looked like.
I wouldn't expect this of a referee with less than say... 3 to 5 years experience in the game. But ultimately, decisions are a percentage game and I'm willing to take a punt if necessary to maximise my percentages

I recently had a player knock the ball out the keeper's hands
I didn't see it, but gave a FK on the basis that I knew what had happened without seeing it
Maybe 3 years ago, I would've had carnage on my hands as I too had the mindset of needing to see something to give it
Click to expand...
A load of truth around the instincts and what the game expects.

When a decision is expected I do slightly hold off to take reactions in and build a bigger picture. Some players have zero poker face.

It might not be the best thing, but I have 100% given decisions I haven't seen. Almost always in these cases they have been what the game expects and there is little arguments.
 
I won't lie, early on in my career I had a player asking me a question (probably how long left ref), around the edge of the centre circle. We were in the last stages of the game, a minute or 2 to go.

Turned to answer him as ball was in play, and turned back around to find 2 players on the floor with the ball. Lots of shouting from the team that were closer to the opposition goal.

I blew the whistle for the foul!

Thankfully... No complaints, sold it.

This is at 3-2 to the offending team.

Ball is lumped into the penalty area, and what happens...

Headed shot, keeper fumbles and it goes in for 3-3!

Could've been mayhem. Thankfully wasn't. I did learn a lesson that day though!
 
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