A&H

Open Age Been assaulted

Phonesurgeon

Phonesurgeon

Cook, Cleaner and Bottle Washer
Level 7 Referee
Couple of weeks ago, during a mid table clash.
80th minute player dismissed S7, after giving him more than his fair chance warning, and he told me to f**k off back to the f***ing country I f***ing come from... Adding the 4 letter C bomb. Not only that but also pushed me couple of times both hand on chest.
Detailed report to CFA, as well as police....
Today found out that said player was already on a "sine die" since 2015!
How the flip was he allowed near a pitch is a guess!
 
The Referee Store
Really sorry to hear it mate.

Suppose it raises an interesting question how does the FA punish a player they've already Sine Die?

Presume much of the punishments will be handed down to the club..

Can't see the police doing a lot for a couple of shoves on a football pitch. And that comment is in no way intended to brush of the severity of what happened, despite it reading as such. I hope that makes sense.
 
JamesL said:
Really sorry to hear it mate.

Suppose it raises an interesting question how does the FA punish a player they've already Sine Die?

Presume much of the punishments will be handed down to the club..

Can't see the police doing a lot for a couple of shoves on a football pitch. And that comment is in no way intended to brush of the severity of what happened, despite it reading as such. I hope that makes sense.
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Might be considered a 'hate crime' under the newish legislation
Chances are, the player will be back in action for another team as there's not much to prevent unregistered players in the lower echelons
 
I hope you are ok mate a referee should never be physically assaulted sometimes I think players forget that we are humans.

Just a question to anyone but what exactly is a sine die?
 
Phonesurgeon said:
Couple of weeks ago, during a mid table clash.
80th minute player dismissed S7, after giving him more than his fair chance warning, and he told me to f**k off back to the f***ing country I f***ing come from... Adding the 4 letter C bomb. Not only that but also pushed me couple of times both hand on chest.
Detailed report to CFA, as well as police....
Today found out that said player was already on a "sine die" since 2015!
How the flip was he allowed near a pitch is a guess!
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Very sad to hear that. How do you feel about it and have you reffed since?
 
Police took view as a racial motivated assault, but the officer also said that although a prosecution would be on cards, so court and all, in reality police are reluctant to put it through court as magistrate would only impose some community services! Instead police want to record as S39 common assault with S5 public order offense with racial motivated comment. It means £90 fine and a a record on police database. Which to me sound ok(ish) plus CFA fine, perhaps another "sine die".
 
Reply from CFA when queried the "sine die" from 2015, makes interesting reading:

I have no idea why it is still showing him as being ‘sine die’ because I have checked and double checked and he was definitely ok to play. In 2015 the Club, did place (the player) on default owing monies to them but he paid this within a couple of weeks so this was lifted back in 2015. There was also a case that was not paid on time and therefore may have shown him as being sine die for a short time but the Club paid this and again this was lifted immediately.

I can assure you, when someone is under a suspension, all Counties across the country see the same suspension
 
'Sine die' is a Latin phrase that literally means 'without day.' It's a legal term meaning 'without a fixed date (for resumption).' In the Cambridge English dictionary, a secondary meaning is given: 'for a period of time with no fixed end.'

So if someone is banned 'sine die' it means they have a ban with no end date.
 
Peter Grove said:
'Sine die' is a Latin phrase that literally means 'without day.' It's a legal term meaning 'without a fixed date (for resumption).' In the Cambridge English dictionary, a secondary meaning is given: 'for a period of time with no fixed end.'

So if someone is banned 'sine die' it means they have a ban with no end date.
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Yet, they do give an end date as legally they are allowed a route back, at some point!
 
Well, all I can say is that if anyone is setting an end date for a sine die suspension then they are misusing (and misunderstanding) the term. I looked at a number of county FA websites and several of them have the following:
A player under Sine Die suspension is prevented from taking part in any form of football activity.
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Which would be consistent with the idea that a sine die suspension means an indefinite suspension.

Several also mention that anyone who owes money to a county FA (usually for a fine) is shown on the suspension list with a 'sine die' notation which again, means they are suspended from all football activity until or unless they pay the debt.

Birmingham FA has this in their Help Section:
What does sine die mean?
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Sine die is suspension from all football. This can be can be for non payment of fines or a serious case of misconduct.
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Sheffields Finest said:
Yet, they do give an end date as legally they are allowed a route back, at some point!
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If they do then they don't publish the fact.

I've just had a look through Kent FAs list of suspended players, and picked a team local to me.

They have one person who got Sine Die a couple of years ago and there is no end date, but, they do have people who were given a long ban (730 days) which does have an end date.
 
I doubt whether a full life ban is actually legal! Everyone is allowed some way back... eventually
 
Sheffields Finest said:
I doubt whether a full life ban is actually legal! Everyone is allowed some way back... eventually
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Of course it's legal.

We agree to various things when we register, as do players and clubs etc, one of those is the circumstances under which we may receive temporary or permanent bans from football that is affiliated to The FA.
 
Sheffields Finest said:
I doubt whether a full life ban is actually legal! Everyone is allowed some way back... eventually
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I think you can infer from some county handbooks.

For example, in mine it is:

"A Sine Die suspension from all football related activity with no review to be considered under a period of five years and a minimum fine of £100.00"

I think the ban is fine, but a legal issue might be around preventing a review? Nothing to stop the review from continuing the sine die suspension though. That should potentially allow for some youth offender who lost his head at 16-18 to come back at some point when he's gone through rehabilitation, but every case on its merits etc.
 
I think you have legal problems if you tell people they don't have any chance of a review. For example, a whole life tariff for murder is pretty much non-existent. There have been legal challenges in the courts against these, and I am sure a lifetime ban from football would be challenged in the same way. I am not sure you can actually tell someone they will never be allowed to do something ever again, unless there are pretty damning circumstances.

We had a player in a Sunday league I referee on who apparently told a player before the game he was going to break his legs, and then proceeded to do exactly that with an absolutely shocking challenge. He was banned sine die and has never played again. The incident was almost twenty years ago and he is still showing as banned sine die on the CFA website. He is in his forties now so will probably (hopefully!) not play again, because the report of his trial for this incident said that he was "sent off quite a few times in the past"! That's putting it politely.

When I was playing many years ago we played against a team who's goalkeeper was playing his first game back after his third Sine Die suspension! He was an absolute animal when we played them, so I think they probably didn't actually review it but just said after 5 years that he'd served his time so would now be allowed to play again. I'm not sure what they thought after the second and then third times, because you'd think they'd realise he wasn't learning and ban him properly if they could.
 
zarathustra said:
Of course it's legal.

We agree to various things when we register, as do players and clubs etc, one of those is the circumstances under which we may receive temporary or permanent bans from football that is affiliated to The FA.
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Where does it say permanent is permanent???
 
Sheffields Finest said:
Where does it say permanent is permanent???
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But that's the thing - 'sine die' doesn't mean permanently. It just means that as yet, no specific date has been set for the end of the ban. Another way of putting it, is that that the person is suspended 'until further notice.' As @RobOda's post mentions, a sine die ban may potentially be reviewed after a minimum of 5 years but it still means there is no fixed date on which it comes to an end.
 
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