Assisting the Center Referee on Calls

[RefIADad]

Thanks. As for "checking with the AR"...I didn't mean to imply that the center referee should run over to the AR and have a conversation, but just eye contact where maybe the AR can give a signal to assist. But I agree and I posted this for confirmation that the AR should not force himself into these calls by raising his flag. Thanks for the confirmation...but the other part of my question was...what do you say to coaches when they are in your ear to "help out the center". Do you just tell him that it's the center's call or the center didn't ask for my opinion or something like that?

I hear that a lot in the games I do since 1) I’m a relatively experienced referee that the coaches know pretty well and 2) I work older games (high school, college, older club, adult). My stock response is “the center is a lot closer to the play and with a better angle than we have.” My second line is “Look, I’m the assistant referee. I’m here to assist as part of the team.”

To the original post, one of my instructions during my pregame is for ARs to get a feel for what I’m calling and do their best to “calibrate” to that. I try to do the same as an AR. I tend to call a tighter game than some of my colleagues, particularly early in each half. However, if the center isn’t calling something I’d normally call a foul, I’ll do my best to calibrate to his/her foul threshold.

 

[captainwinsor]

Another hello from a US ref. I’m shocked you can have a pre game chat. Most ARs show up just before the kickoff And when I AR I have no issues raising my flag for anything I see and also no issues with the CR waving me off. You’re there to assist. No egos needed

 

[Ref X]

Another hello from a US ref. I’m shocked you can have a pre game chat. Most ARs show up just before the kickoff And when I AR I have no issues raising my flag for anything I see and also no issues with the CR waving me off. You’re there to assist. No egos needed

Tell me about it. That's mostly the culture I've experienced as a rookie referee here in the US.

Sometimes I wish folks I work with would take it a bit more seriously!

 

[one]

And when I AR I have no issues raising my flag for anything I see and also no issues with the CR waving me off. You’re there to assist. No egos needed

While this is very good confidence and no ego it can be problematic in match control if you raise your flag when the referee doesn't want you to. If a referee waves down an AR who has flagged for a foul, almost certainly there is an error to be found from the officials team.

Before I raise my flag I ask myself does he want me to raise the flag? If I don't know the answer then I haven't asked the right questions in the pre match (or he hasn't given me proper instructions).

 

[Ref X]

While this is very good confidence and no ego it can be problematic in match control if you raise your flag when the referee doesn't want you to. If a referee waves down an AR who has flagged for a foul, almost certainly there is an error to be found from the officials team.

Before I raise my flag I ask myself does he want me to raise the flag? If I don't know the answer then I haven't asked the right questions in the pre match (or he hasn't given me proper instructions).

Really good point here.

Experienced referees have told me as AR to take more or less control depending on their positioning.

• If they have great positioning and good proximity to a play, it's usually best to leave it to them unless it's something really obvious or something you think you can only see from your angle (like a shirt tug, etc).
• If they are catching up with play or caught in a poor position (maybe because of an unexpected counter attack), the AR can take more control over a call in their area because it's likely they're the closest official to the play and have the best angle.

Can be hard to pull this off since you have to be watching the offside line, watching the players for fouls and have a spidey-sense about where the referee is. Just takes experience and practice.

Anyway, this makes sense in my head. Different referees will want different things out of ARs but this strikes me as a good best-practice.

 

[socal lurker]

I do think pregame is a key here. Much harder to actually work as a team if you don’t talk about what the Lea. Leader (the R) wants.

 

[Ref X]

I do think pregame is a key here. Much harder to actually work as a team if you don’t talk about what the Lea. Leader (the R) wants.

100%.

 

[RustyRef]

Another hello from a US ref. I’m shocked you can have a pre game chat. Most ARs show up just before the kickoff And when I AR I have no issues raising my flag for anything I see and also no issues with the CR waving me off. You’re there to assist. No egos needed

If you flag when you aren't credible and the referee waves you down you are chucking the referee under the bus. If he gives the foul he will get "how is he giving that from there when you are much closer", if he doesn't give it he will get "look at your lino ref, he's seen it".

 

[Ref X]

If you flag when you aren't credible and the referee waves you down you are chucking the referee under the bus. If he gives the foul he will get "how is he giving that from there when you are much closer", if he doesn't give it he will get "look at your lino ref, he's seen it".

Definitely right. Obviously something you want to avoid.

 

[RefIADad]

While this is very good confidence and no ego it can be problematic in match control if you raise your flag when the referee doesn't want you to. If a referee waves down an AR who has flagged for a foul, almost certainly there is an error to be found from the officials team.

Before I raise my flag I ask myself does he want me to raise the flag? If I don't know the answer then I haven't asked the right questions in the pre match (or he hasn't given me proper instructions).

If my original post conveyed a certain amount of ego (and I know it wasn't you replying to me), I didn't want that to come that way. For me, I want to reduce and ideally avoid having a flag waved down for a foul. It will happen for sure, particularly in tournaments where we don't get a chance to have a pregame. But with a good pregame and comms, having a flag waved down won't happen nearly as much. That shows good teamwork.

Here's an example from a game last week. I was AR1, and there was a tackle/challenge deep in my quadrant. From where I was, I had a definite foul and a likely caution. However, the center was at the corner of the penalty area in my quadrant and immediately said, "No foul" over the comms. I didn't raise my flag. The center was in good position and is a really good official, so we talked it out and went with no foul. When the coach came out to check on the player, he gave me an earful about not helping the center. All I said was "Center was right there in great position." Without a good pregame, me checking his position, and him immediately talking over comms, I would have raised for a foul and been waved down. People can disagree about the final call, and I'm sure a few were upset that I didn't call something that is in front of me. But we got to a call that the crew made (or didn't make) as a team.

The one thing I just don't want to do is run a game from the sideline. Trust me, there is some temptation there at times. However, I have to tell myself that I'm assisting and not centering the game with a flag.

 

[one]

If my original post conveyed a certain amount of ego (and I know it wasn't you replying to me), I didn't want that to come that way. For me, I want to reduce and ideally avoid having a flag waved down for a foul. It will happen for sure, particularly in tournaments where we don't get a chance to have a pregame. But with a good pregame and comms, having a flag waved down won't happen nearly as much. That shows good teamwork.

Here's an example from a game last week. I was AR1, and there was a tackle/challenge deep in my quadrant. From where I was, I had a definite foul and a likely caution. However, the center was at the corner of the penalty area in my quadrant and immediately said, "No foul" over the comms. I didn't raise my flag. The center was in good position and is a really good official, so we talked it out and went with no foul. When the coach came out to check on the player, he gave me an earful about not helping the center. All I said was "Center was right there in great position." Without a good pregame, me checking his position, and him immediately talking over comms, I would have raised for a foul and been waved down. People can disagree about the final call, and I'm sure a few were upset that I didn't call something that is in front of me. But we got to a call that the crew made (or didn't make) as a team.

The one thing I just don't want to do is run a game from the sideline. Trust me, there is some temptation there at times. However, I have to tell myself that I'm assisting and not centering the game with a flag.

Happy to admit that I hadn't really read your first post when I posted mine. What you said makes sense.

I would add, in your example, as a CR without comms and pre-game, if you had flagged and the incident was in your credible area, I ask myself have you refereed at this level on a regular basis? If the answer is yes then I blow for the foul even if I originally didn't think it was one. A couple of reasons, in this situation it's easier to sell a foul than sell a no foul. It is also a better image for the team as a whole.

 

[GraemeS]

If my original post conveyed a certain amount of ego (and I know it wasn't you replying to me), I didn't want that to come that way. For me, I want to reduce and ideally avoid having a flag waved down for a foul. It will happen for sure, particularly in tournaments where we don't get a chance to have a pregame. But with a good pregame and comms, having a flag waved down won't happen nearly as much. That shows good teamwork.

Here's an example from a game last week. I was AR1, and there was a tackle/challenge deep in my quadrant. From where I was, I had a definite foul and a likely caution. However, the center was at the corner of the penalty area in my quadrant and immediately said, "No foul" over the comms. I didn't raise my flag. The center was in good position and is a really good official, so we talked it out and went with no foul. When the coach came out to check on the player, he gave me an earful about not helping the center. All I said was "Center was right there in great position." Without a good pregame, me checking his position, and him immediately talking over comms, I would have raised for a foul and been waved down. People can disagree about the final call, and I'm sure a few were upset that I didn't call something that is in front of me. But we got to a call that the crew made (or didn't make) as a team.

The one thing I just don't want to do is run a game from the sideline. Trust me, there is some temptation there at times. However, I have to tell myself that I'm assisting and not centering the game with a flag.

Worth noting as well that most people on here won't ever have used comms - they're explicitly banned below a certain level in the UK.

As a L5 I've never been involved in a game with them, it's possible but unlikely to be put on a game with them at L4 and I'd guess they probably only become semi-routine at L3 and above (others may correct me on that). So that probably explains 1) the fact no one assumed this could be sorted out over comms and 2) therefore the importance of having this stuff pre-arranged before KO.

 

[Russell Jones]

Worth noting as well that most people on here won't ever have used comms - they're explicitly banned below a certain level in the UK.

As a L5 I've never been involved in a game with them, it's possible but unlikely to be put on a game with them at L4 and I'd guess they probably only become semi-routine at L3 and above (others may correct me on that). So that probably explains 1) the fact no one assumed this could be sorted out over comms and 2) therefore the importance of having this stuff pre-arranged before KO.

Currently (in England) Comms are basically used in the vast majority of regular games where four officials are appointed. So Step 1 of Non League and above. Not at Step 2 or below which is somewhat surprising given the scale of some of the games at that level. They are (proportionately) in far more widespread use in the other two countries I've reffed in, Denmark & New Zealand

 

[captainwinsor]

If you flag when you aren't credible and the referee waves you down you are chucking the referee under the bus. If he gives the foul he will get "how is he giving that from there when you are much closer", if he doesn't give it he will get "look at your lino ref, he's seen it".

I should clarify my post. I’m not out there raising my flag at every opportunity. Sometimes there’s an obvious fouls near me and I’ll raise my flag and for what ever reason, the CR will wave me off. It’s usually someone who’s less experienced or on rare occasion, that person who is a control freak and only wants you to be sideline decoration. Had one of those this past fall. CR overruled me on almost every out of play ball. I don’t mind being waved off but that was ridiculous.