A&H

Are referees adequately represented?

santa sangria

santa sangria

RefChat Addict
The VAR show has brought out some very strong criticisms of referees on TV. There is a lot “it’s all about them”-type accusations, questioning of competence of on field officials and e.g. Webb (that I think is baseless).

And it’s vitriolic. And we know it’s threatening and we know personal safety is threatened and grassroots officials suffer most.

We are freelancers, we don’t have normal employment rights and I think it’s fair to say that our referee associations do not provide the kind of services and representation we see in other professions.

Other freelance professions, filmmakers, writers, for example can have effective representation. Society does not allow media to encourage abuse of teachers, nurses, military…

-> Are we missing proper representation, does our employment status need to change?
The football power brokers are happy to exploit referees for free publicity so they will not change. What will it take for the referee community to have it’s ###moment?
 
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The only other profession that faces the same vitriolic criticism in the media is politicians. I do think the FA and County FAs need to step up their game when it comes to protecting officials, particularly at grassroots and non-league. Maybe Referee Associations could come to act more like unions or something to help campaign for employment interests? Maybe we should all be classed as direct employees of our County FAs, giving them a clear interest to invest in the safeguarding of referees? I don’t know. To be honest it’s very rare I feel threatened at a game - but sometimes I do, and that bit needs to change.
 
Competitions generally fall on the side of the participants. You see abuse over and over again, and players/clubs continue to play after a week or so off.

If any of them had the balls to say… y’know what? You’re NOT welcome in our competition and bin them off… might eventually see some change. As it is, there’s little consequence to their actions.
 
The trouble is, I don’t think leagues can just kick teams out. They have to be voted out by the other teams, or else it’s not considered constitutional and the CFA will tell the league we have to let them back in.

Our league has a team who cause all sorts of issues, but the clubs don’t seem to want to sort them out. They’ve made serious threats of violence against opponents’ families, but the players involved don’t want to make official complaints because they will know who made them. Unless the teams vote them out the league’s hands are tied, but the other teams are either scared of them or are not in their division and don’t consider them a problem. Last season they “won” several matches because the opponents refused to play them after physical violence in previous games. I don’t know what they get out of it, because when I played football I just wanted to actually play football!

There are only so many referees the league can put on their games, because we can’t afford to lose any more - we are already struggling for numbers, so putting the wrong person on their games could mean we lose another ref.
I had them a couple of weeks ago and was subjected to really horrible abuse by most of the team, officials and supporters. They are waiting on the FA to sort out the misconduct reports to see how big the fines are. Hopefully they will decide they can’t afford them and pull out of the league, but I’m not holding my breath.
 
SammyT5 said:
The only other profession that faces the same vitriolic criticism in the media is politicians. I do think the FA and County FAs need to step up their game when it comes to protecting officials, particularly at grassroots and non-league. Maybe Referee Associations could come to act more like unions or something to help campaign for employment interests? Maybe we should all be classed as direct employees of our County FAs, giving them a clear interest to invest in the safeguarding of referees? I don’t know. To be honest it’s very rare I feel threatened at a game - but sometimes I do, and that bit needs to change.
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I guess I am thinking more generally about workers’ rights. There are already organizations raising the profile of violence against referees.

Aren’t we in the same situation as others on zero hours contracts… has the task rabbit crowd, Uber drivers etc. actually opened the door for referees to get proper independent representation?

Asking county FAs to represent us is lunatics and asylum stuff. Same with Pgmol, ifab… they are all bank rolled by the competitions and have no interest in protecting, developing or humanizing officials.
 
santa sangria said:
I guess I am thinking more generally about workers’ rights. There are already organizations raising the profile of violence against referees.

Aren’t we in the same situation as others on zero hours contracts… has the task rabbit crowd, Uber drivers etc. actually opened the door for referees to get proper independent representation?

Asking county FAs to represent us is lunatics and asylum stuff. Same with Pgmol, ifab… they are all bank rolled by the competitions and have no interest in protecting, developing or humanizing officials.
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Move to zero hours contracts and you are liable for tax on your earnings . . .
 
ChasObserverRefDeveloper said:
Move to zero hours contracts and you are liable for tax on your earnings . . .
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Agree, people need to be very careful what they wish for. Referees at grass roots are generally considered as pursuing a hobby rather than being employed. Introduce any kind of contract, zero hours or otherwise, and that changes big style.

In any case, referees do have representation. In England there is the RA, they are effectively a trade union that referees can join for an annual fee, just as a teacher can pay to join the NUT or a train driver can pay to join ASLEF. There's an argument as to how effective they are, but that's probably said about many trade unions. There's also Ref Support UK who represent referees in the UK without payment.

I don't think there is a global organisation representing referees, but I'm pretty sure the same can be said of teachers and train drivers.
 
RustyRef said:
Agree, people need to be very careful what they wish for. Referees at grass roots are generally considered as pursuing a hobby rather than being employed. Introduce any kind of contract, zero hours or otherwise, and that changes big style.

In any case, referees do have representation. In England there is the RA, they are effectively a trade union that referees can join for an annual fee, just as a teacher can pay to join the NUT or a train driver can pay to join ASLEF. There's an argument as to how effective they are, but that's probably said about many trade unions. There's also Ref Support UK who represent referees in the UK without payment.

I don't think there is a global organisation representing referees, but I'm pretty sure the same can be said of teachers and train drivers.
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My ra rep is a barrister.

The 2 times i needed him I defeated the cfa once and a youth league once.

I have always been a member of the ra.
 
Kent Ref said:
My ra rep is a barrister.

The 2 times i needed him I defeated the cfa once and a youth league once.

I have always been a member of the ra.
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Each to their own, I personally haven't ever had any need for legal representation for anything refereeing related. Obviously some RAs are better than others, but I think a lot are outdated and really don't offer any attraction to younger referees starting out.
 
Will_A said:
We're already liable for tax on any match fees received.
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As self-employed "contractors" (in England) a lot of expenses are deductible, which would not be the case if it becomes an employed role.
As @RustyRef has said, it is currently seen as a hobby, with HMRC aware of fees and acceptable deductions for grassroots officials.
 
My experience with the RA recently has been poor. My local RA has folded due to low attendance, and national RA events I was planning to go to were cancelled.
The RA could do a lot more to consult with the membership (e.g. digitally) and use its social media to greater effect, but senior levels seem reluctant to upset the FA?
There is no chance that grassroots referees become employees and it's probably better that way.
 
Where I am we don’t have the tax grey area as in the UK. All appropriate taxes are deducted at source. Our RA takes part in the debate about changes in match fees (I don’t think they have the power to actually negotiate). We sign a “contract”, give our availability, basically like zero hours workers.

The RA provides social activities but not any kind of employment support or advice. They are an association not a union.

Where I am we don’t have the media bile and very few serious incidents. I wonder what it’s like in the Netherlands or other countries where the “profession” has been in the news?
 
OnlyUseMeWhistle said:
Sounds like we need a union comrades
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I detect a hint of sarcasm… the challenges with pay, conditions, tax, insurance etc. sound a lot like delivery drivers… the only people that want to rock the boat are groups like Ref Su**** that I think don’t really represent (at least going by the comments on here) - and their campaigning feels too dramatic.

The point still stands - politicians aside there’s not another profession that takes this kind of abuse from all sides.. the footballers’ unions wouldn’t stand for it, are we really that masochistic?

(Obviously, yes…;))
 
santa sangria said:
I detect a hint of sarcasm… the challenges with pay, conditions, tax, insurance etc. sound a lot like delivery drivers… the only people that want to rock the boat are groups like Ref Su**** that I think don’t really represent (at least going by the comments on here) - and their campaigning feels too dramatic.

The point still stands - politicians aside there’s not another profession that takes this kind of abuse from all sides.. the footballers’ unions wouldn’t stand for it, are we really that masochistic?

(Obviously, yes…;))
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Oh no sarcasm here! Everyone should join a union at work
 
Have there even been test cases (or whatever the appropriate term would be), where a referee has claimed to - effectively - be an employee of County FA (or national) below the pro level? In relation to tax, or loss of earnings if sick, or assaulted, contract law, etc etc?

I only receive work through persons appointed by my County FA, on a regular and consistent basis, using their approved software, complete it to their standards, their members pay me for it, and I’m expected to keep them aware of when I am unavailable under any circumstances and could arguably suffer if I fail to do so within a certain timeframe and then reject an offer of work.

I’m obviously being fecetious, but what if…
 
I think it's the classic "worker" story that no one wants to be the first as it sticks a target on the back.
It takes a major incident or a collective to lawyer up - a la delivery drivers, Ama*** warehouse workers etc. - otherwise everyone just carries on.
And as a tribe of proven masochistic obsequious sycophants (come one, we are) we are the least likely to stamp our feet, and the most likely to just suck it up - because "that's the job".

(I had a blinding match tonight in driving rain - I'm not on a downer crusade - still genuinely probing the delivery driver parallel)
 
There's a lot in the laws that could really do with a bit of a test case. Although it would be unpleasant to be involved in, I've long wondered how valid the "Liability of Match Officials" section of the LOTG would really be if ever actually challenged.

Football in general seems to get away with a lot of "I said that wasn't my problem so it isn't", which doesn't feel like it would ever work in any other context.
 
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