The Ref Stop

When to get involved for SFP as AR

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JoetheRef

JoetheRef

Member
Level 7 Referee
Hi all,

I had an OA game on Saturday, I was AR. Score is 2-0 and the winning team wins a penalty for what will be the last kick off the game so no impact on result. Definite foul. From my point of view the GK has left the floor and his studs make connect with the attacker's shin. I am 100% sure this should be a red card for SFP. The ref was much more experienced than me, gave the penalty, didn't look unsure and didn't look to me for any help but I got the feeling he was going to go yellow, which he did. Post game he said he didn't see any studs so went yellow, although he acknowledged it was an 'orange'. My question is that, as by the far the junior official , should I be calling the ref over to tell him I think it's red (there was a decent amount of time in between the foul and the caution because of the injury) despite the fact he could still go for red and he didn't visibly want any help? As the junior official and not wanting to make us look like an uncoordinated team, and to be honest not wanting to put myself unnecessarily under the spotlight when the final whistle was imminent, I kept my flag down (no buzzers) and in my opinion the wrong decision was reached. Post match Ref said that he should have asked my opinion, which in all honesty if he felt he had a good view of it I'm not sure he necessarily should have.

Any thoughts would be much appreciated, cheers.
 
The Ref Stop
All comes down to the referees pre-match for me. If their pre-match dictates they don’t want you getting involved, don’t get involved. If they offer you the chance, they you can maybe get involved.

Different at higher levels where comms are in play, as the SFP being incorrect will potentially go down against both of you. But at grassroots without comms, it’s the referee who will take the hit
 
JoetheRef said:
I did think this in the moment and I wished he'd been a bit more in depth than, 'you're both qualified, I won't lecture you with a prematch' which was the entire thing 🤣🤣
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This is a prime example as to why a good pre-match is so important. Simply being a qualified referee does not mean you know what you’re talking about. Neil Warnock is a qualified referee- I wouldn’t want him running my line!
 
If the referee hasn't given sufficient pre-match, ask a couple of questions. If he seems uninterested, leave it. He is basically saying he trusts your instict and wants you to do what you think is right. Then when it comes to taking action on the field do exactly that. At the time what did you gut feel tell you? If it was call him over, do that if not then don't.

What would have I done in thos instance? You said you were 100% sure it was red. I won't get involved immediately unless I feel he is not giving a red. If he goes yellow, then I'd call him over, make sure no players are in earshot. Then tell him I know and have no doubt it is red (not "l think it is red"). Dont insist or persist. If he asks questions about why etc, explain. Let him make a decision from there. You have not thrown him under the bus. You have given him a chance to correct a mistake. It is his choice to accept your opinion and go through a difficult sell. He had a good chance to consult you during injury and he didn't even though hadn't seen the incident properly. For me that was a bigger mistake than not giving per-match.
 
If the R doesn’t make eye contact with the AR, he probably isn’t going to be interested in input. But if he sees it as orange, he should be looking at the AR for potential input. Around here, standard expectation is for the AR to pat the shirt pocket to signal yellow and the back pocket to signal red—the R can decide from there to make a decision or to chat with the AR first.
 
Personally, if the referee has awarded the penalty and cautioned for reckless play without coming over to consult you then he's made his decision so leave it be.
In the grand scheme of things you wouldn't really be helping him or achieving anything by giving him your take on it (unless he's completely and obviously wrong in law).
You've done your job, which is to assist, not insist. ;)
Only my opinion though ...
 
I would only get involved here if it is such a bad decision there is uproar about it, but that does depend on pre-match instructions.
 
You need a reason to get involved in something like this IMO. Valid reasons include

1. The ref has explicitly told you to proactively get involved in prematch if you see him making any wrong KMI decision
2. The ref is staring at you looking for your input
3. It's such an obviously wrong decision that the ref is the only one who sees it differently and is going to struggle for credibility for the rest of the game if it's allowed to slide

From your description, 1 and 2 don't apply. You don't make it sounds like 3 applies in terms of everyone losing their minds at the lack of a red, and the fact it's at the end of the game and won't impact the result is relevant too. I appreciate in theory, getting red cards right is really important - but in practice, if no one is demanding the red and you get to the end of the game OK, is that really worth getting yourself involved for?
 
socal lurker said:
If the R doesn’t make eye contact with the AR, he probably isn’t going to be interested in input. But if he sees it as orange, he should be looking at the AR for potential input. Around here, standard expectation is for the AR to pat the shirt pocket to signal yellow and the back pocket to signal red—the R can decide from there to make a decision or to chat with the AR first.
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Is there a consensus on which pocket means yellow/red? I’ve done a couple recently (to good effect) but with top pocket as red and side shorts yellow - again, guess it’s part of the prematch but wondering if there’s a ‘usual’
 
puddles15 said:
Is there a consensus on which pocket means yellow/red? I’ve done a couple recently (to good effect) but with top pocket as red and side shorts yellow - again, guess it’s part of the prematch but wondering if there’s a ‘usual’
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Not a big fan but have gone the other way round when needed - mainly as our county badge is red.
 
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puddles15 said:
Is there a consensus on which pocket means yellow/red? I’ve done a couple recently (to good effect) but with top pocket as red and side shorts yellow - again, guess it’s part of the prematch but wondering if there’s a ‘usual’
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Not sure that tapping a pocket to indicate a card is really deemed good practice these days. If players / manager see it and the referee doesn't act it is likely to cause issues.
 
puddles15 said:
Is there a consensus on which pocket means yellow/red? I’ve done a couple recently (to good effect) but with top pocket as red and side shorts yellow - again, guess it’s part of the prematch but wondering if there’s a ‘usual’
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around me, shirt pocket means yellow and back pocket means red. But I'm in the U.S., so that likely doesn't help you.
 
As AR with no comms I always ask the ref in pre match. Most want help with chest tap YC, back pocket RC. If a ref is looking at you wanting help with an orange card, they are not going to think you are scratching you a***!

Even with comms I have a couple of refs that want code words instead of red/yellow. I get it but I’m not convinced it matters. If someone hears an AR say yellow or tap a chest, but the ref goes red, they are still going to be selling/explaining a RC to other stakeholders who might disagree. Code words are unnecessarily complicated IMHO.
 
I did come in on SFP this weekend but had a total brain fart and didn't get the number of the offending player - asked the ref if he had the number and he didn't so it looked really **** that I called him over for a stamp and nothing happened.

If you're going to come in, have all the details
 
I’ve personally never ever asked an AR to tap a pocket and I’ve never been asked, either. Just looks a bit messy and reminds me of the below scene from The Simpsons


If you believe you have spotted something that needs that extra bit of attention from the referee, signal it by how much you exaggerate your flag signal.
 
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OnlyUseMeWhistle said:
I did come in on SFP this weekend but had a total brain fart and didn't get the number of the offending player - asked the ref if he had the number and he didn't so it looked really **** that I called him over for a stamp and nothing happened.

If you're going to come in, have all the details
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I had a scenario in a step 4 game a couple of years ago when I was a L4 on the line.
Referee, following the ball has an incident kicking off behind his back, just inside 18 yard box on my half of the field.
He realises something has gone down so he stops the game and calmly walks over to me.
'I got nothing' he said.
'I've seen a punch swung out the corner of my eye, and it was thrown by a player wearing a red top, but I really don't know which one of the red players it was' (as everyone crowded round before I could see a face or a number)
'don't worry, if you're certain a punch was thrown, I know who threw it'
'yes, definitely'.
Ref walks off and proceeds to send off a player from red team.

After the game, he asked if I knew how he knew which player it was despite having his back to it.
He said 'when I first stopped the game as went to come over to you, the player shouted 'he elbowed me first'. 😆
 
I had similar in an FA Cup as a L3. Play was down in one corner and I could feel the buzzer going off, looked at the active AR and he wasn't signalling. Hear a shout of "Ref, look at your lino", I turn around and the other AR was flagging furiously. Go over to him and he tells me that after a ceremonial free kick up that end (the ball had hit the wall and play quickly changed direction) two players had scuffled and one had struck the other. So we have a penalty out of nothing, at which point I ask him which defending player to send off, he tells me he doesn't know, he lost him. I think it was around that time that we both wanted the ground to open up and swallow us, just had to explain that he'd seen an offence but it wasn't violent.

We muddled through it but it really didn't look very good. Personally I think if you don't know who it was you are probably better pretending you haven't seen it.
 
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