The Ref Stop

Violent Conduct

R

Redref34

Well-Known Member
Level 5 Referee
Hi all

Thoughts on how I handled the below please.

Ball runs through to goalkeeper, goalkeeper collects in hands, striker runs across him, keeper decides to kick the legs of the striker, I would say in a reckless way.

I give penalty. Striker runs up to goalkeeper again to get the ball out of his hands, keeper kicks the legs again of the striker this time slightly harder, I send keeper off for Violent conduct.

Keeper refuses to leave vicinity and starts getting abusive from behind the barriers. I stop game and ask him to leave. He returns at the end and give abuse as we are walking off.

Submitted extra report.

Anything else I should / could have done differently?

Thanks
 
The Ref Stop
Kent Ref said:
How do you kick another player's leg recklessly?

The first incident appear to me to be VC on it's own.
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The OP may not have described the incident very clearly, but not every "kicking an opponent" is going to be a dismissal - if the ball was there to possibly be won, it may have been careless, reckless, or serious foul play. Perhaps @Redref34 can let us know?
 
No ball to be won.

Ball was in control of the keeper (in his hands ready to be released into play)

I agree, the first kick which I gave the penalty for was VC on its own, before I got to make that decision he had done it a second time!
 
Redref34 said:
No ball to be won.

Ball was in control of the keeper (in his hands ready to be released into play)

I agree, the first kick which I gave the penalty for was VC on its own, before I got to make that decision he had done it a second time!
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My point also being that if he kicked him in this way I assume that the reckless / excessive force doesn’t come into play with VC?
 
Redref34 said:
My point also being that if he kicked him in this way I assume that the reckless / excessive force doesn’t come into play with VC?
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That’s right. They’re considerations for Unsporting Behaviour or Serious Foul Play. The latter occurs when there may be an attempt to play the ball. In this case, it can’t be played as he’s in possession and clearly lost his head.

A push or a barge into the attacker is where you could argue reckless - e.g. he’s been pushed or barged while collecting the ball and has had a go back, but the act of kicking as described is violent conduct.
 
Redref34 said:
My point also being that if he kicked him in this way I assume that the reckless / excessive force doesn’t come into play with VC?
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There has to be excessive force or brutality (meaning savage, ruthless or deliberately violent). So you can justify it as a deliberately violent act for the GK to have kicked the attacker in these circumstances.

The Laws say:
Violent conduct is when a player uses or attempts to use excessive force or brutality against an opponent when not challenging for the ball, or against a team-mate, team official, match official, spectator or any other person, regardless of whether contact is made.

In addition, a player who, when not challenging for the ball, deliberately strikes an opponent or any other person on the head or face with the hand or arm, is guilty of violent conduct unless the force used was negligible
 
Redref34 said:
Hi all

Thoughts on how I handled the below please.

Ball runs through to goalkeeper, goalkeeper collects in hands, striker runs across him, keeper decides to kick the legs of the striker, I would say in a reckless way.

I give penalty. Striker runs up to goalkeeper again to get the ball out of his hands, keeper kicks the legs again of the striker this time slightly harder, I send keeper off for Violent conduct.

Keeper refuses to leave vicinity and starts getting abusive from behind the barriers. I stop game and ask him to leave. He returns at the end and give abuse as we are walking off.

Submitted extra report.

Anything else I should / could have done differently?

Thanks
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You are correct in what you have done....

From a learning point of view, I would not have expected you to have asked him to leave. Once he has left the field of play, his conduct becomes that of the club. So from a preferred approach, when you stopped the game, you should have gone to his club officials and told them to remove him from the vicinity of the pitch. Make it clear, that failure to do so, will result in a report being made against the club for failing to control their players.

You approaching him directly gave him the possibility of further abusive language to you or worse (an assault), so technically you gave him that opportunity.

Remember, you wouldn't approach a spectator like that, so why approach the player?
 
lincs22 said:
You are correct in what you have done....

From a learning point of view, I would not have expected you to have asked him to leave. Once he has left the field of play, his conduct becomes that of the club. So from a preferred approach, when you stopped the game, you should have gone to his club officials and told them to remove him from the vicinity of the pitch. Make it clear, that failure to do so, will result in a report being made against the club for failing to control their players.

You approaching him directly gave him the possibility of further abusive language to you or worse (an assault), so technically you gave him that opportunity.

Remember, you wouldn't approach a spectator like that, so why approach the player?
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Such important advice. So important that the club and their officials have to take responsibility. You can also imagine the worst case scenario: player refuses to leave and you start thinking about abandonment. If you have continued to deal direct with the player, it is very difficult to manage, very awkward for you, and you are digging yourself a massive hole. Yes, I’ve made this mistake.
 
Redref34 said:
Hi all

Thoughts on how I handled the below please.

Ball runs through to goalkeeper, goalkeeper collects in hands, striker runs across him, keeper decides to kick the legs of the striker, I would say in a reckless way.

I give penalty. Striker runs up to goalkeeper again to get the ball out of his hands, keeper kicks the legs again of the striker this time slightly harder, I send keeper off for Violent conduct.

Keeper refuses to leave vicinity and starts getting abusive from behind the barriers. I stop game and ask him to leave. He returns at the end and give abuse as we are walking off.

Submitted extra report.

Anything else I should / could have done differently?

Thanks
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Overall, job well done!

For the first offense, as no challenge for the ball was involved, reckless is not a consideration. It’s either an act of Violent Conduct (RC) or, if, in your opinion, merely petulant, then adopting an aggressive attitude (YC)
 
Russell Jones said:
Overall, job well done!

For the first offense, as no challenge for the ball was involved, reckless is not a consideration. It’s either an act of Violent Conduct (RC) or, if, in your opinion, merely petulant, then adopting an aggressive attitude (YC)
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Citation needed pls Mr Jones...

This is not supported in the wording in law.

In fact... Id argue to say that it is explicit that kicking or attempting to kick an opponent can be done either carelessly, recklessly or excessively forceful.
 
JamesL said:
Citation needed pls Mr Jones...

This is not supported in the wording in law.

In fact... Id argue to say that it is explicit that kicking or attempting to kick an opponent can be done either carelessly, recklessly or excessively forceful.
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Great question James 😊. And my interpretation is certainly open to challenge! My logic goes that the OP is not a challenge for the ball. Therefore, our choice to go red would be on the basis of VC rather than SFP. And the threshold for what constitutes VC has risen over time and differs from that for SFP. The most often cited example is the Beckham World Cup ‘kick out’ back against Argentina .. at the time, seen as a red card offense, now put clearly into the realms of a petulant yellow card offense. You’d be hard pushed to describe that incident as Reckless from Beckham but it’s off the ball nature warrants a YC nonetheless. Overall, I just believe it’s safer / simpler / easier not to apply the CRUEF approach to incidents not involving a challenge for the ball.
 
AAA is only an FA thing. With LOTG any kicking is either nothing (unlikely in OP), careless (also unlikely) which is no sanction, reckless which is USB, or UEF where challenging for the ball determines if it is SFP or VC.

Unless any of us had seen it, we don't have a true idea of which of CRUEF it was. I tend to go with the opinion of the referees who was there.
Russell Jones said:
Overall, I just believe it’s safer / simpler / easier not to apply the CRUEF approach to incidents not involving a challenge for the ball.
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Disagree. Or at the very least we can't fault a referee who does use the approach.
 
See I am questioning now if the kick out was just petulant as it could be argued that it wasn’t excessive force. However, in my mind, if a goalkeeper holding the ball kicks at a strikers legs, he only really has one intention, to try and cause harm, therefore VC. I understand that if it’s a little flick out that will potentially not warrant a dismissal. I think on this occasion a RC was warranted on balance.
 
one said:
AAA is only an FA thing. With LOTG any kicking is either nothing (unlikely in OP), careless (also unlikely) which is no sanction, reckless which is USB, or UEF where challenging for the ball determines if it is SFP or VC.

Unless any of us had seen it, we don't have a true idea of which of CRUEF it was. I tend to go with the opinion of the referees who was there.

Disagree. Or at the very least we can't fault a referee who does use the approach.
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Totally understand the perspective. So, using Beckham as an example (where everyone now cites this as a nailed on YC), do you genuinely believe it’s credible to see this ‘kick’ as Reckless?
 
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