VAR Question

[one]

This question is not exactly the incident from an A-League game last night. But raises a possible shortfall in the protocol. I am not asking what you think should happen, but what does the protocol say?

The referee calls a careless foul very close to the PA line for the attacking team. VAR thinks its inside but not 100% sure so the referee decides to have an OFR (On Field Review). After the review, he realises there is no foul, only some incidental contact outside the PA. What should he do now?

Can VAR (or ref) then change a free kick to a dropped ball?

The protocol is clear on if a caution is discovered on a review for other reviewable incident (4 types), caution should be issues. But it doesn't explain if a non-key decision like a free kick can be changed.

 

[JamesL]

Wait, for in or out decision this is factual therefore the VAR should send down the decision. This is supported in the protocol..just like offside.
So surely this can only have been sent for review of the actual foul. So ref must believe still a foul on review.
Havent seen the clip so I am not passing opinion on whether correct or not, only that the protocol supports VAR input without OFR for location of offence scenario.

 

[JamesL]

It does say these can be sent down for OFR to "sell" decisions of key match changing decision.

It also says:
• The referee will then take/change/rescind any disciplinary action (where
appropriate) and restart play in accordance with the Laws of the Game

I think you are correct, it doesnt specify if you can change the free kick... but I reckon you should be able to and then dropped ball would be appropriate.

The protocol references a VAR handbook. I would imagine this contains more in depth info.

 

[one]

Wait, for in or out decision this is factual therefore the VAR should send down the decision. This is supported in the protocol..just like offside.
So surely this can only have been sent for review of the actual foul. So ref must believe still a foul on review.
Havent seen the clip so I am not passing opinion on whether correct or not, only that the protocol supports VAR input without OFR for location of offence scenario.

Yes it does but it is not an exclusive option. The referee has the option of an OFR if he wants to and can do an OFR even for factual decision. In this case an OFR suggestion by VAR made sense. There were 3 defenders involved and contact inside as well as outside the PA. The question is once you are reviewing, can you change a decision which is not the purpose of the OFR and also not a KMI (retract a FK outside the PA)?

EDIT: didn't see your second post before posting. nonetheless the question remains.

 

[JamesL]

Bit of bedtime reading for you. Looking to see if the answer is in there...

 

[one]

Bit of bedtime reading for you. Looking to see if the answer is in there...

Have read it multiple times. That's the one i referred to as the protocol

 

[JamesL]

I got this so far...

5.1.11 How does play restart after the review?
Once the referee has reached a final decision, the match must be restarted as follows:
• if a decision is not changed, play restarts according to the original decision
• if a decision is changed or a ‘missed’ offence is identified, play restarts with the correct
restart for the ‘new’ decision.
• if play was stopped for a review and the original decision is not overturned, play
restarts with a dropped ball where the ball was when play was stopped

Third Edit - no point 2 is the appropriate one. If a decision is changed play restarts with the correct restart for new decision.
We then go to law 8 which says....
A dropped ball is the restart when the referee stops play and the Law does not
require one of the above restarts.

 

[one]

I got this so far...

5.1.11 How does play restart after the review?
Once the referee has reached a final decision, the match must be restarted as follows:
• if a decision is not changed, play restarts according to the original decision
• if a decision is changed or a ‘missed’ offence is identified, play restarts with the correct
restart for the ‘new’ decision.
• if play was stopped for a review and the original decision is not overturned, play
restarts with a dropped ball where the ball was when play was stopped

Whilst written poorly I think the third point applies the most and is in line with SOG and WFE.

This could imply you can change the non OFR related decision as much as the 4 reviewable limitations/criteria imply it can't be changed. So still not a definitive answer

 

[JamesL]

This could imply you can change the non OFR related decision as much as the 4 reviewable limitations/criteria imply it can't be changed. So still not a definitive answer

I changed my answer. Not sure if it helps lol.

 

[JamesL]

Not sure if answer you are looking for, but if I read correctly for penalty/no penalty decisions the referee can review the attacking possesion phase. So by my interpretations he can also review whether it is a foul or not as well as location. Not sure if that is right or what other thinks but at best I think this is WFE.
Might be worth pointing it in Mr Ellerays direction and seeing a) what he thinks, and b) if he thinks the handbook needs to be more explicit about this scenario

 

[one]

Not sure if answer you are looking for, but if I read correctly for penalty/no penalty decisions the referee can review the attacking possesion phase. So by my interpretations he can also review whether it is a foul or not as well as location. Not sure if that is right or what other thinks but at best I think this is WFE.
Might be worth pointing it in Mr Ellerays direction and seeing a) what he thinks, and b) if he thinks the handbook needs to be more explicit about this scenario

Everything* that can be changed still impact the KMI. E.g. a foul leading up to a pen will nullify the pen. In my scenario once you decide contact was outside then free kick or not is a non-KMI. Can it be changed?

*The only non-impacting decision explicit in the handbook is issuing a caution if discovered when reviewing.

I agree. It should be clearer and more explicit.

 

[CapnBloodbeard]

Not sure if answer you are looking for, but if I read correctly for penalty/no penalty decisions the referee can review the attacking possesion phase. So by my interpretations he can also review whether it is a foul or not as well as location. Not sure if that is right or what other thinks but at best I think this is WFE.
Might be worth pointing it in Mr Ellerays direction and seeing a) what he thinks, and b) if he thinks the handbook needs to be more explicit about this scenario

I think one tricky area is -
Say the ref puts down a penalty. Goes to VAR. Looking on replay, you might think 'probably wrong' or 'can't tell either way', but that's not enough to overturn it, so original decision stands. But what if that's a foul, and the ref goes to VAR to see if it should be a penalty?
And then you can see that the contact the ref initially saw was in the box, but it raises doubt over the original foul?
On one hand, it's not 'clearly and obviously' a wrong decision to start with...but on the other hand, given there's doubt over whether it's a foul, it's not 'clearly and obviously' a penalty either.

Be interesting how that's interpreted, but I'd say in that instance, the bar to overturn the first decision would have to be much lower.