A&H

Junior/Youth U18 abandonment etc.

SLI39

Well-Known Member
I was called up to fill a few gaps this morning (my first non-friendly fixtures for 18 months due to work), and it was quite eventful.
Some issues that I wouldn't mind some input on:

1) There is no way U7 mini soccer can fit into a 45-minute schedule. Either return to 20 minute halves or make it an hour slot.

2) Should a player be booked for C5 simply for being too lazy to retreat? I did so partly because of the temperature of the game, but in reality it was hard to determine whether he walked across or whether the taker kicked it into him with this sanction in mind.

3) 3G pitches seem to be more hassle than they are worth; not only do managers, officials and players all potentially need to change footwear to conform to regulations, but the enclosures invariably mean more time is wasted due to replaced/retrieved balls. I do not see a huge improvement to the game itself, but then at this time of year I suppose you are guaranteed not to abandon due to weather.

4) I had to abandon due to a goalkeeper's head injury. Obviously safety at youth level is paramount, but to what extent is it my responsibility to try to continue the match? If management/players are shocked, is that sufficient reason? My feeling was simply to let the medical staff take over, speak to the coaches, report, and let the league decide the rest. There was a reluctance to move the player off the pitch despite there being the equipment to do so, but I struggle to believe this has a medical foundation, as then more Premier League games would be abandoned.
 
The Referee Store
I do not see a huge improvement to the game itself, but then at this time of year I suppose you are guaranteed not to abandon due to weather.

A genuine modern 3G pitch is great for the game. Beside not abandoning fixtures due to the weather, it enables and encourages a passing game as it will never turn into disgusting mud churns that encourage long balls, never mind the exhaustive efforts of trying to get any traction in some of these mudbaths.

There should be fewer injuries as well due to the ground not shifting underneath players. I'd take a hard grass pitch over a 3G personally, but I love a game on a 3G over winter mudbaths.

Obviously safety at youth level is paramount, but to what extent is it my responsibility to try to continue the match?

Common sense applies mostly.

Most competitions specify an amount of time that has to be played for the result to stand, normally 70 minutes. If it's beyond 70 and no one's complaining, abandon it.

If it is before that, then endeavour to continue unless both teams do not want to play. The league can sort them out if they've taken the mick.

The main reason we abandon at the lower leagues is we don't have dedicated ambulance staff and waiting for a call out can take 1-5+ hours as football injuries are considered non-priority thesedays. So, you can end up waiting too long in cold weather, or with failing light, in which case, no point hanging about.
 
A genuine modern 3G pitch is great for the game. Beside not abandoning fixtures due to the weather, it enables and encourages a passing game as it will never turn into disgusting mud churns that encourage long balls, never mind the exhaustive efforts of trying to get any traction in some of these mudbaths.

There should be fewer injuries as well due to the ground not shifting underneath players. I'd take a hard grass pitch over a 3G personally, but I love a game on a 3G over winter mudbaths.



Common sense applies mostly.

Most competitions specify an amount of time that has to be played for the result to stand, normally 70 minutes. If it's beyond 70 and no one's complaining, abandon it.

If it is before that, then endeavour to continue unless both teams do not want to play. The league can sort them out if they've taken the mick.

The main reason we abandon at the lower leagues is we don't have dedicated ambulance staff and waiting for a call out can take 1-5+ hours as football injuries are considered non-priority thesedays. So, you can end up waiting too long in cold weather, or with failing light, in which case, no point hanging about.

Thanks, that makes a lot of sense. There are paramedics on standby for the Premier League, I suppose.
It was shortly after the 70 minute mark, so the result will probably stand.
As for 3G, I will have to gather a bigger sample but am open to your impressions.
 
I was called up to fill a few gaps this morning (my first non-friendly fixtures for 18 months due to work), and it was quite eventful.
Some issues that I wouldn't mind some input on:

1) There is no way U7 mini soccer can fit into a 45-minute schedule. Either return to 20 minute halves or make it an hour slot.
This isn't your concern. Play to the competition rules. If you don't like them and you are involved with a club, then suggest a rule change. Otherwise put up with the current situation

2) Should a player be booked for C5 simply for being too lazy to retreat? I did so partly because of the temperature of the game, but in reality it was hard to determine whether he walked across or whether the taker kicked it into him with this sanction in mind.
Was this an U7 player? Really?

3) 3G pitches seem to be more hassle than they are worth; not only do managers, officials and players all potentially need to change footwear to conform to regulations, but the enclosures invariably mean more time is wasted due to replaced/retrieved balls. I do not see a huge improvement to the game itself, but then at this time of year I suppose you are guaranteed not to abandon due to weather.
See 1) above.

4) I had to abandon due to a goalkeeper's head injury. Obviously safety at youth level is paramount, but to what extent is it my responsibility to try to continue the match? If management/players are shocked, is that sufficient reason? My feeling was simply to let the medical staff take over, speak to the coaches, report, and let the league decide the rest. There was a reluctance to move the player off the pitch despite there being the equipment to do so, but I struggle to believe this has a medical foundation, as then more Premier League games would be abandoned.
If the player has an injury and can't be moved, you have little choice but to abandon, especially if your game won't be finished by the time the next one is due or the players will have been standing around too long or people are showing concern for the safety of the player. Your post seems to suggest they were unwilling to move the player and you seem to have a problem with that. Moving a player with a serious head injury, without the necessary medical training could result in further injury to that player. In fact your whole post appears to demonstrate a lack of empathy with the game and the participants. It's not played for your benefit.

Hope the player is ok.
 
Thanks for the input. I appreciate it.
For the record, no! I did an U18 game after the U7 matches, and this booking was for a 17 yo. (Although there were some chuckles among the youngsters about the possibility of getting a booking in their very first game at 6 years of age; a way to introduce yourself..)
 
I struggle to see how I have demonstrated a lack of empathy. That is some stretch.

I took a game with a few days' notice and didn't realise I would have to wear particular studs. So there was frustration there, but at least they lent me boots.

Of course, if he strictly could not be moved, that is fair game.
But I felt that certain people there were open to the possibility of moving him (closer to the arriving ambulance, in fact), but did not take it upon themselves to take initiative. When the manager said he could not continue, that would also be fine, but spare me the 'sensitive soul' stuff when you have been questioning my decisions. You can't suddenly flick a switch.
And I sent an email to the club asking to find out his condition.

Also, on the timing issues for U7, how is that a lack of empathy? It got to the point where I had not time to go to the toilet or even not rush pre-match proceedings. And I was still late for most kick-offs. The two-minute intervals are abused. I suggested to club staff that this be looked at, but of course, tournament rules prevail.
 
3) 3G pitches seem to be more hassle than they are worth; not only do managers, officials and players all potentially need to change footwear to conform to regulations, but the enclosures invariably mean more time is wasted due to replaced/retrieved balls. I do not see a huge improvement to the game itself, but then at this time of year I suppose you are guaranteed not to abandon due to weather.
I'd echo this. In an ideal world, football was intended to played on grass (preferably not summer concrete). Unfortunately, games on grass are cancelled left-right-and-centre for financial reasons only, so many clubs are turning to 4G to keep overall costs down (and spoil the game imo)
 
I disagree (re 3G)* I think they are a huge benefit to the game.

My game yesterday was on a 3G and it was a fantastic game between two sides that wanted to play football and, because of the pitch, they could. So even disregarding all the advantages of the all weather ability of 3G pitches, they do produce better football.

I am lucky, I regularly get to referee on the best grass pitch in my County - a pitch that is the envy of many - and I will agree, that grass pitch does edge it over 3G. But I also get to referee on some pretty rubbish pitches - there is one pitch in my Sunday league that I am sure is a farmers field 6 days a week (once had to halt the game as we had a pitch invasion from some sheep who had escaped from the neighbouring field.) This pitche’s “home” team are a good footballing side, but they still have to revert to physicalaity and strength because of the pitch.

As an aside, a couple of years ago I went to “an evening with Gary Linekar” He was asked is he envious of the current players, with their fame & wealth etc. He replied he’s not envious of the money, but he does wish that he could have played regularly on the standard of pitch top flight football is played on today.

(*Perhaps a future career as a poet beckons?!)
 
1) As others have said, this isn't really a problem for the match-day referee. Your job is to turn up and be ready for kick off at the assigned time, run the game as per the LOTG, collect your money and go home. If you're unable to fit a LOTG-compliant game in the time slot you've been assigned, then I think the best thing to do is simply to let it run over/turn up whenever you can and then politely mention it to whoever hired you when you're done. No reason for a big fuss.

2) To get a card out for C5, I usually look for one (or both) of two things to have happened: Offender has run a long distance to block the restart and/or has been asked to move away and has refused. If he's fallen over in the process of giving away a FK, has started to get up and then had the ball played into him before I can instruct him to move away, then no offense.
Technically you should then play on at this point, but for match control reasons I'd usually insist on stopping, explaining why a card isn't necessary and then allow a retake. If you have an observer present, simply tell them you weren't ready for the initial restart!

3) Strongly disagree on 3G pitches, I think they're great. It sounds like you had some bad luck with not being notified as a result of being a late call-up, but at this time of year they allow matches to go ahead that otherwise wouldn't. And later in the year, when pitches have started to dry, you'll again see the benefits when grass pitches have developed all sorts of dangerous dips and bumps, while your 3G pitch is the same as ever.

4) Sounds like you were right to abandon. When it comes to moving an injured player, that's the decision of the team physio, not you. The most you can do is ask if he can be moved. If the answer is no, and an ambulance isn't due within the next ~30minutes then I think abandonment is sensible. And again, concerns over what happens next/who gets the points aren't really your problem - report the facts, keep notes incase they need any more details and let county FA/the league decide if the match needs to be replayed or not.
 
I struggle to see how I have demonstrated a lack of empathy. That is some stretch.

I took a game with a few days' notice and didn't realise I would have to wear particular studs. So there was frustration there, but at least they lent me boots.

Of course, if he strictly could not be moved, that is fair game.
But I felt that certain people there were open to the possibility of moving him (closer to the arriving ambulance, in fact), but did not take it upon themselves to take initiative. When the manager said he could not continue, that would also be fine, but spare me the 'sensitive soul' stuff when you have been questioning my decisions. You can't suddenly flick a switch.
And I sent an email to the club asking to find out his condition.

Also, on the timing issues for U7, how is that a lack of empathy? It got to the point where I had not time to go to the toilet or even not rush pre-match proceedings. And I was still late for most kick-offs. The two-minute intervals are abused. I suggested to club staff that this be looked at, but of course, tournament rules prevail.
Quite a short one to be honest. You had "a few day's notice" of the game, seemingly with a club and at a venue with which you weren't familiar, but you didn't find out about the change of footwear until arrival. Seems to be all about you there.

Who mentioned "sensitive soul"? I questioned your non-sequitur where you jumped from point 1) about an U7 game to 2) booking for failing to retreat - itself a feature of mini-soccer which is what would be played at U7 level.

Your lack of empathy is demonstrated through this statement "I struggle to believe this has a medical foundation, as then more Premier League games would be abandoned.". Maybe it wasn't a medical matter, but a psychological one where you stated "management/players were shocked".

I bring you back to my original point in this post. It's not all about you.
 
Quite a short one to be honest. You had "a few day's notice" of the game, seemingly with a club and at a venue with which you weren't familiar, but you didn't find out about the change of footwear until arrival. Seems to be all about you there.

Who mentioned "sensitive soul"? I questioned your non-sequitur where you jumped from point 1) about an U7 game to 2) booking for failing to retreat - itself a feature of mini-soccer which is what would be played at U7 level.

Your lack of empathy is demonstrated through this statement "I struggle to believe this has a medical foundation, as then more Premier League games would be abandoned.". Maybe it wasn't a medical matter, but a psychological one where you stated "management/players were shocked".

I bring you back to my original point in this post. It's not all about you.


I just find it amusing how wrong you appear to have got me given that for a long time I have been told (both in terms of my day job and refereeing) that I give people the benefit of the doubt, do not always apply logical consequences to actions, and in fact should be more cold-blooded.
I was merely wondering why it is deemed so dangerous to move a concussed player a short distance when it is so often done at higher levels. In no way was I dismissing this player's condition. I remember my brother being carried to a car very shortly after having his nose sliced open in a youth match, so I don't think this is a rule that can be applied in all cases. In fact, it may be very unwise in certain scenarios not to move a player.

And believe me, if nerves and shock were factors in abandonment, I would abandon 60% of my games for the sake of my own health! As a junior referee, when I once took a pause off the pitch to gather myself and prevent a panic attack, I was told in no uncertain terms that I was worryingly not in control of the match. No patience with shock there, funnily enough.
But yes, if you want to take that an arrogant impression from my posts, I suppose that is your prerogative.
 
I just find it amusing how wrong you appear to have got me given that for a long time I have been told (both in terms of my day job and refereeing) that I give people the benefit of the doubt, do not always apply logical consequences to actions, and in fact should be more cold-blooded.
I was merely wondering why it is deemed so dangerous to move a concussed player a short distance when it is so often done at higher levels. In no way was I dismissing this player's condition. I remember my brother being carried to a car very shortly after having his nose sliced open in a youth match, so I don't think this is a rule that can be applied in all cases. In fact, it may be very unwise in certain scenarios not to move a player.

And believe me, if nerves and shock were factors in abandonment, I would abandon 60% of my games for the sake of my own health! As a junior referee, when I once took a pause off the pitch to gather myself and prevent a panic attack, I was told in no uncertain terms that I was worryingly not in control of the match. No patience with shock there, funnily enough.
But yes, if you want to take that an arrogant impression from my posts, I suppose that is your prerogative.
Thanks for the window into your life, it seems enthralling. I'm sure your autobiography will do well, but again, it will be all about you (and your brother's nose which somehow seems connected to his legs preventing him from walking).

Just to come back to moving a professional player vs someone playing in the Dog&Duck league - professional player's injury is an occupational hazard and the medical facilities/staff available at a typical Premier League ground are probably as good as the local NHS A&E department; amateur player lack of medically trained personnel and where to move them to? Another piece of damp grass/mud. Slight difference.
 
I just find it amusing how wrong you appear to have got me given that for a long time I have been told (both in terms of my day job and refereeing) that I give people the benefit of the doubt, do not always apply logical consequences to actions, and in fact should be more cold-blooded.
I was merely wondering why it is deemed so dangerous to move a concussed player a short distance when it is so often done at higher levels. In no way was I dismissing this player's condition. I remember my brother being carried to a car very shortly after having his nose sliced open in a youth match, so I don't think this is a rule that can be applied in all cases. In fact, it may be very unwise in certain scenarios not to move a player.

And believe me, if nerves and shock were factors in abandonment, I would abandon 60% of my games for the sake of my own health! As a junior referee, when I once took a pause off the pitch to gather myself and prevent a panic attack, I was told in no uncertain terms that I was worryingly not in control of the match. No patience with shock there, funnily enough.
But yes, if you want to take that an arrogant impression from my posts, I suppose that is your prerogative.
Player safety is primary and when it comes to head injuries you can't be too careful. Maybe it's just me, but a player with an obvious head injury that is clearly not faking it is getting all the time that the physio needs.
 
I disagree (re 3G)* I think they are a huge benefit to the game.

My game yesterday was on a 3G and it was a fantastic game between two sides that wanted to play football and, because of the pitch, they could. So even disregarding all the advantages of the all weather ability of 3G pitches, they do produce better football.

I am lucky, I regularly get to referee on the best grass pitch in my County - a pitch that is the envy of many - and I will agree, that grass pitch does edge it over 3G. But I also get to referee on some pretty rubbish pitches - there is one pitch in my Sunday league that I am sure is a farmers field 6 days a week (once had to halt the game as we had a pitch invasion from some sheep who had escaped from the neighbouring field.) This pitche’s “home” team are a good footballing side, but they still have to revert to physicalaity and strength because of the pitch.

As an aside, a couple of years ago I went to “an evening with Gary Linekar” He was asked is he envious of the current players, with their fame & wealth etc. He replied he’s not envious of the money, but he does wish that he could have played regularly on the standard of pitch top flight football is played on today.

(*Perhaps a future career as a poet beckons?!)

3g pitches are fantastic. However, the ball does travel faster over a grass pitch, which is very noticeable at the professional level. But for the amateur/non league game, 3g pitches are brilliant.
 
I was called up to fill a few gaps this morning (my first non-friendly fixtures for 18 months due to work), and it was quite eventful.
Some issues that I wouldn't mind some input on:

1) There is no way U7 mini soccer can fit into a 45-minute schedule. Either return to 20 minute halves or make it an hour slot.

2) Should a player be booked for C5 simply for being too lazy to retreat? I did so partly because of the temperature of the game, but in reality it was hard to determine whether he walked across or whether the taker kicked it into him with this sanction in mind.

3) 3G pitches seem to be more hassle than they are worth; not only do managers, officials and players all potentially need to change footwear to conform to regulations, but the enclosures invariably mean more time is wasted due to replaced/retrieved balls. I do not see a huge improvement to the game itself, but then at this time of year I suppose you are guaranteed not to abandon due to weather.

4) I had to abandon due to a goalkeeper's head injury. Obviously safety at youth level is paramount, but to what extent is it my responsibility to try to continue the match? If management/players are shocked, is that sufficient reason? My feeling was simply to let the medical staff take over, speak to the coaches, report, and let the league decide the rest. There was a reluctance to move the player off the pitch despite there being the equipment to do so, but I struggle to believe this has a medical foundation, as then more Premier League games would be abandoned.


1: wouldn't know about this, I don't referee youth matches anymore, except for the odd one off.

2: that is absolutely a valid reason to caution someone if you felt like it. If you see a player is being too lazy to retreat then maybe a softer approach could be taken. If he's losing I just remind him that it's his own time he's wasting, that usually seems to get them to hurry up.

3: that's why you always make sure to have a couple of match ready balls on standby. Bit of common sense that one.

4: if it's an injury that you deem to be serve in nature, then speak to both teams. I once had a 12 year old goalie dislocate his knee in a freak accident. Sometimes things happen and its not safe to move someone without a properly trained first aider present. If in doubt, call it out. Better to be safe than sorry. And if its a gruesome injury, maybe it would be fit to ask both coaches how they feel about restarting or not restarting. Also sometimes you've got games on afterwards, so you should be mindful of that as well.
 
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