RefSix

Two Questions

JBeil

New Member
#1
Both coming from my last OA game on sunday:

1. How far are you prepared to deviate from the diagonal if necessary? At some points the ball was beyond the far side of the box and while I could see things clearly, on a busier game with more mobile players there might have been an obscured view. How do you decide where to curve your run to, and on a related note, how do you get out of cramped quarters? A few times in this game I've had players more or less on every side and I've just had to stand still and wait for an opening to appear.
2. How do you sell decisions you've made where a player has tackled in a careless, reckless or excessive manner and not made contact? There were a few silly sliding challenges with studs up but the players didn't seem to expect me to do anything as there was no contact made, and looking back I think I might have been better served squashing the first one as some of the challenges later on were more dangerous - I honestly think if I had given a free kick for the non-contacts I would have been lynched!
 

alexgr

RefChat Addict
#3
1. At grassroots I completely ignore the diagonal. I’d rather be close enough to see things that happen, makes it easier to sell them if you’re fit enough. I more often than not use a sort of figure of 8. In terms of getting out of the way, I hang back generally, or if I’m very near just stand still and make it obvious to the player with the ball I’m not moving.

2- a loud word at the next open play seems to work for me - ‘watch the way you go in please mate, your studs were up in that last one and it could be dangerous”
 

RustyRef

Administrator
Staff member
#4
There isn't really a diagonal any more, and it is now referred to more as a "lazy S". This generally means that would will come out wide, but then as play gets close to the penalty area you will come in more central, hence the S.
 

socal lurker

Well-Known Member
#5
My two cents:

1. Get where you need to be to see what you need to see. With ARs that is going to keep you on something close to a diagonal--but there is no point going out wide when the play is concentrated in the right attacking area. Most referees go through stages. At first they struggle to figure out where the diagonal is. Then they get overly wed to it like a train track. And then they get flexible about their position and being where they need to be.

2. The times we need to call a DFK offense without any contact are relatively uncommon. If it is reckless or EF, everyone on the field is likely to be aware that wasn't good. On a careless challenge that doesn't have contact, you just need to say it was careless and unfairly disadvantaged the opponent. The fouler is never gonna like it, but tough.
 

one

RefChat Addict
#6
1. As far as it is necessary (and you did say if necessary). If I have NARs (or even without them) I don't generally find it necessary to get an internal angle and still prefer the external angle (stay on the PA side). But every scenario is different, you come form a position from the lead up, have to be in a position to make the correct call for current play, and be mindful of where play is going to be so you don't have to make a KMI call from 40 yards away.

2. Use the intensity of the whistle and a sure/confidence body langues but still a hard sell. SFP is extremely rare if there is no contact. I can't remember seeing or even hearing of one. VC is not as common but if they are challenging for the ball, it cant be VC.
 

Tealeaf

Lighting the darkest hour
Staff member
#7
On point 2, use your voice. “Steady!” or words to that effect let’s them know you’re watching. Doesn’t necessarily mean a formal sanction needs to be applied but can serve to settle it down
 

Mintyref

RefChat Addict
#8
If you are on your own, abandon the diagonal/lazy S.......just keep up with play......

On point two, judgement is needed, wouldn't be the first time that I've called the skippers in and read the riot act.....I've also penalised the first one too.......
 

Sheffields Finest

Maybe I'm foolish, maybe I'm blind!
#9
If you are on your own, abandon the diagonal/lazy S.......just keep up with play......

On point two, judgement is needed, wouldn't be the first time that I've called the skippers in and read the riot act.....I've also penalised the first one too.......
Is the Lazy Circle still in the Ull handbook @Mintyref ?? ..... Minimal head movements to concentrate on getting the decisions right!!
 

RobOda

RefChat Addict
#11
2. How do you sell decisions you've made where a player has tackled in a careless, reckless or excessive manner and not made contact? There were a few silly sliding challenges with studs up but the players didn't seem to expect me to do anything as there was no contact made, and looking back I think I might have been better served squashing the first one as some of the challenges later on were more dangerous - I honestly think if I had given a free kick for the non-contacts I would have been lynched!
I think it depends:

If there's a poor challenge and there's no contact and yet it caused the attacker to have to take evasive action, hurdle or whatever, I will call it, especially if he ends up losing the ball directly as a result of the action he's had to take.

Otherwise a public admonishment to let the players know that you're not happy with that sort of challenge should give them an idea of what you're looking to cut out.
 
#13
With genuine respect to my fellow referees, I believe that the ref's positioning (in low level games without ARs) is purely down to how you are able to read the game. Most referees (again at low level matches) haven't played the game to a "high level" because if they had they would certainly read the game and anticipate incidents and general play far better. 99% of "low level" refs do it for the love of the game, a fact that your average (and very average) Sunday morning player doesn't comprehend. In my experience, if I try to be no further than 20-25 metres away from the action, I get a better view of any incident. Without ARs if we were able to track the referees movement during the 90 minutes, the resulting pattern would look like a bowl of spaghetti - with AR's a totally different pattern.
 

one

RefChat Addict
#14
With genuine respect to my fellow referees, I believe that the ref's positioning (in low level games without ARs) is purely down to how you are able to read the game. Most referees (again at low level matches) haven't played the game to a "high level" because if they had they would certainly read the game and anticipate incidents and general play far better. 99% of "low level" refs do it for the love of the game, a fact that your average (and very average) Sunday morning player doesn't comprehend. In my experience, if I try to be no further than 20-25 metres away from the action, I get a better view of any incident. Without ARs if we were able to track the referees movement during the 90 minutes, the resulting pattern would look like a bowl of spaghetti - with AR's a totally different pattern.
This makes sense for someone who wants to stay at low level games. The lower the level the more impossible to read it. Teams lose the ball frequently. Passes are inaccurate. Pass when should hold. Hold when should pass. Left back lines up right wing, you take off to get there but the ball ends up with the left wing and he says "I meant that" :). The only thing predictable about the lowest divisions of grassroots is it's unpredictability and that's why it so hard to practice positioning in those game. But it doesn't mean you can't try best practices to get into good habits. When ball is challenged:

Best angle is no 1 priority
Good distance (10-15 m) is next
If you have NAR, keep play between is next

There is a whole lot more best practice tips on this forum and in positioning educational material.
 

Sheffields Finest

Maybe I'm foolish, maybe I'm blind!
#15
This makes sense for someone who wants to stay at low level games. The lower the level the more impossible to read it. Teams lose the ball frequently. Passes are inaccurate. Pass when should hold. Hold when should pass. Left back lines up right wing, you take off to get there but the ball ends up with the left wing and he says "I meant that" :). The only thing predictable about the lowest divisions of grassroots is it's unpredictability and that's why it so hard to practice positioning in those game. But it doesn't mean you can't try best practices to get into good habits. When ball is challenged:

Best angle is no 1 priority
Good distance (10-15 m) is next
If you have NAR, keep play between is next

There is a whole lot more best practice tips on this forum and in positioning educational material.
I thought optimum distance was 19m?
 

RobOda

RefChat Addict
#16
The only thing predictable about the lowest divisions of grassroots is it's unpredictability and that's why it so hard to practice positioning in those game.
Agreed. I dread reserve games (I don't get them often though) because the quality of football is on par with a kickabout in the back garden. Someone goes for a pass, it gets skied straight up. Someone goes to volley it, they skim it, someone tries to head it, somehow it hits the ground and they nutmeg themselves.

It is so difficult to referee. Even foul detection is so much harder at the lowest levels (imo) because I can never tell if they're doing a foul or if both players are that bad they're screwing up.

I've always felt if you go up, the game gets a lot easier when you get used to the pace of it.
 
#17
My first ever observer told me to to use games with no ARs to practice the diagonal. In my opinion she was right. And what I learnt was to take an even wider diagonal when possible/relevant to see offsides. You can't cover every blade of grass, so sacrifice some precision on ball in/out on the far side (where your AR would be) to see game-changing marginal offsides from side on rather than vertically.

The idea of the headless chicken - go anywhere - approach is a bizarre I think. Of course there are times when you will have to leave the diagonal/s whether you have ARs or not, it's only a tool, but it's still the bread and butter.
 

Ciley Myrus

RefChat Addict
#19
My first ever observer told me to to use games with no ARs to practice the diagonal. In my opinion she was right. And what I learnt was to take an even wider diagonal when possible/relevant to see offsides. You can't cover every blade of grass, so sacrifice some precision on ball in/out on the far side (where your AR would be) to see game-changing marginal offsides from side on rather than vertically.

The idea of the headless chicken - go anywhere - approach is a bizarre I think. Of course there are times when you will have to leave the diagonal/s whether you have ARs or not, it's only a tool, but it's still the bread and butter.

Agreed, you simply must have some structure to your positioning
I also adopt near same positions, with or without ARs.
Nothing is rigid but we get wide for a reason. Those who struggle doing it for 90 mins and hide behind the mask of servicing the game in reality are only serving their wallet, not the game.
 
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