Two cautionable offences

#1
This relates to a specific incident in a pro game, so please move if necessary.

In the Middlesbrough v Reading game yesterday, a Reading defender fouled Adama Traore on the edge of the penalty area. The ref stopped play, signalled for the free kick and took his book out of his pocket. At this point the same player booted the ball away so it almost reached the halfway line. He was cautioned for something, but from the stand obviously you can't tell which.

I believe there's no reason in law that he couldn't have received two cautions at the same time, and so been sent off. Other than the fact that the first caution hadn't been issued by the time of the second offence, it's no different to the incident with Morata the other week. Am I missing anything?
 
#3
I'm about 95% sure it was the book; but I suppose the question is more general really - can a player incur a second caution without the first being issued?
 

Sheffields Finest

Maybe I'm foolish, Maybe I'm blind!
#5
I've done it, I was cautioning someone for dissent and he called me something naughty beginning with C under his breath.... Bye bye!!! :redcard:
 
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RustyRef

Moderator
Staff member
#7
Happened in an international game. Chris Baird of Northern Ireland committed two fouls in the same passage of play, the referee (Cuneyt Cakit I think) played advantage after the first only for him to then hack down someone else. He showed two yellows, one for each offence, and sent him off.
 

one

Well-Known Member
#8
As long as it is not for the same action (two offences at the same time) it is possible.
For example a reckless tackle which also stops a promising attack can only have one caution.

While a referee is not accountable for player's actions, it is expected that s/he can positively influence player's actions. So if something like the OP happens in my game, in my self assessment I'll be asking myself if there was anything I could have done to prevent the second cautionable offence.
 

Peter Grove

Well-Known Member
#11
As long as it is not for the same action (two offences at the same time) it is possible
According to the recent IFAB circular 11:
TWO OFFENCES AT THE SAME TIME/IN QUICK SUCCESSION
Where two separate cautionable (YC) offences are committed (even in close proximity), they should result in 2 x cautions (YCs), for example if a player:
• enters the field of play without the required permission and commits a reckless tackle/stops a promising attack with a foul/handball, etc.
 

zarathustra

Well-Known Member
#13
I’ve done it once. I was trying to caution a player for a foul.

He kept walking away and refusing to give me his name.

I gave him a chance by saying very loudly, your already getting a caution for the foul, if you don’t come back you’ll get a second caution for dissent.

Even with his team warning him he still managed to talk him self into a second caution and he was gone
 

Kes

I'll Decide ...
#14
So if something like the OP happens in my game, in my self assessment I'll be asking myself if there was anything I could have done to prevent the second cautionable offence.
Really?

Please tell me exactly what that might have been.
 

one

Well-Known Member
#16
Really?

Please tell me exactly what that might have been.
I wasn't there so it may have well Been nothing. But one hypothetical scenario could be that sometimes delaying the taking out of the yellow card for the tackle allows the offender to relax a bit and prevent to reaction.

Or in other cases in the minutes leading up to the foul you can see him getting frustrated and is bound to do something stupid soon. On the run you could have a quick word with him to relax for everyone's good. Or have a word to the captain on the run.

Another example is using body language,voice or whistle tone for a foul to present it as a 'simple' free kick. Over stating it is likely to get a hightened negative reaction from the offender.

These may or may not work but the point is there are times you can use interpersonal skills to positively influence the game and players.
 

Kes

I'll Decide ...
#17
I wasn't there so it may have well Been nothing. But one hypothetical scenario could be that sometimes delaying the taking out of the yellow card for the tackle allows the offender to relax a bit and prevent to reaction.

Or in other cases in the minutes leading up to the foul you can see him getting frustrated and is bound to do something stupid soon. On the run you could have a quick word with him to relax for everyone's good. Or have a word to the captain on the run.

Another example is using body language,voice or whistle tone for a foul to present it as a 'simple' free kick. Over stating it is likely to get a hightened negative reaction from the offender.

These may or may not work but the point is there are times you can use interpersonal skills to positively influence the game and players.
I get that.

But at the end of the day we're not therapists or social workers. We're there to referee the match and apply the Laws. We're not there to try and influence the feelings and actions of players so that we might not have to apply those laws. I think that good game management requires the cooperation of all the players in order for it to work well. Petulant and unsporting behaviour is down to the individual - they have to take responsibility for it. Once we as a society (not just football referees) get away from the notion that any misdemeanour is somehow somebody else's fault as well then we'll be in a much better place. (Just my opinion obviously).
In the OP's case as stated above and even considering your well-written response, there is absolutely naff all that any referee could have done to prevent the Reading defender booting the ball away so why even ask yourself the question?
I don't want to come across as argumentative ( :D ) but I despair of a mindset that would cast a miscreant footballer as somehow a "victim" of poor refereeing on this occasion.
As with many other cases, no doubt the Reading defender has gotten away with it previously and so didn't have to think twice about the possible consequences of his actions.
I'd have walked him. :p
 

es1

Well-Known Member
#18
We absolutely have a role to play in pre-empting flashpoints and acting positively to prevent further escalation. It all helps your match control and how you are perceived by the other players and club officials.

As @one says, you'll often see players becoming more and more frustrated with themselves/an opposition player/you and speaking to them before they cross the line can lead you keeping your match control.

Reacting to a foul and getting in quickly to prevent a flash point between players/dissent towards you or kicking the ball away is also something to be aware of as again, it will help your match control. If you're seen to be dealing with things the players will trust you more and know they're less likely to get away breaking the laws.

Not saying it'll work every time but by not acting pre-emptively you could run the risk of OFFINABUS towards you or another player spectator, violent conduct of a SFP tackle and all of a sudden you could lose whatever good will you'd built up with the players over the previous 70/80 mins and your match control marks can drop through the floor!
 

zarathustra

Well-Known Member
#19
I get that.

But at the end of the day we're not therapists or social workers. We're there to referee the match and apply the Laws. We're not there to try and influence the feelings and actions of players so that we might not have to apply those laws. I think that good game management requires the cooperation of all the players in order for it to work well. Petulant and unsporting behaviour is down to the individual - they have to take responsibility for it. Once we as a society (not just football referees) get away from the notion that any misdemeanour is somehow somebody else's fault as well then we'll be in a much better place. (Just my opinion obviously).
In the OP's case as stated above and even considering your well-written response, there is absolutely naff all that any referee could have done to prevent the Reading defender booting the ball away so why even ask yourself the question?
I don't want to come across as argumentative ( :D ) but I despair of a mindset that would cast a miscreant footballer as somehow a "victim" of poor refereeing on this occasion.
As with many other cases, no doubt the Reading defender has gotten away with it previously and so didn't have to think twice about the possible consequences of his actions.
I'd have walked him. :p
While I agree that it’s high time people started taking responsibility for their actions, I don’t think there is anything wrong with sitting down after a match and wondering whether you could have done anything differently which could have prevented a certain incident.

That’s not to say that a players actions are in anyway the fault of the referee doing or not doing something.

But if we can identify things that we can use to help prevent similar situations in the future surely that is a good thing?

Even just slowing things down to take the heat out of the game, and to remind the players whose in charge can help players calm down and thus potentially prevent a stupid foul later on down the line.
 
#20
Saw it at a Step 4 Game recently. Referee calls player over to caution for a foul, player comes over giving referee a mouthful. Ref pulls out yellow and indicates clearly its for the initial foul, then indicates clearly for the mouthing off, shows the yellow again, followed by the red.