Ref4Me

Translation of L11 deflection/deliberate play please?!

Aconman62

New Member
Level 7 Referee
Hi. I am a brand new ref. Not even stepped foot out there yet and will be hiding away in Youth football to start. I had no idea some of the LOTG were written in code and I like to have an easy way of remembering things if at all possible! I cannot get my head around a player receiving the ball in an offside position after it has come into contact with a defender on the way through (not deliberately played back). Specifically - 'A player in an offside position receiving the ball from an opponent who deliberately plays the ball, including by deliberate handball, is not considered to have gained an advantage, unless it was a deliberate save by any opponent.' Does this bit mean if the defender attempted to block a goalbound shot and it squirted through then that is a 'save' and would be offside? Compared to the shot brushed or deflected off the defender on the way to the 'offside' player (the defender having made no attempt to 'save' the ball) - this would mean the player HAS? gained an advantage and would therefore be offside? Have you guys got a more simple way of me interpreting this rule or to help me get it right please?
 
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RefChat Addict
Hi. I am a brand new ref. Not even stepped foot out there yet and will be hiding away in Youth football to start. I had no idea some of the LOTG were written in code and I like to have an easy way of remembering things if at all possible! I cannot get my head around a player receiving the ball in an offside position after it has come into contact with a defender on the way through (not deliberately played back). Specifically - 'A player in an offside position receiving the ball from an opponent who deliberately plays the ball, including by deliberate handball, is not considered to have gained an advantage, unless it was a deliberate save by any opponent.' Does this bit mean if the defender attempted to block a goalbound shot and it squirted through then that is a 'save' and would be offside? Yes. If in the opinion of the referee it was a save, there is no clearing of OS and it is an OS offense. Except that if it was a handball, it cannot count as a save, so the OS restrictions would be lifted and there would be no offense. Compared to the shot brushed or deflected off the defender on the way to the 'offside' player (the defender having made no attempt to 'save' the ball) - this would mean the player HAS? gained an advantage and would therefore be offside? Correct, a deflection also does not reset OS and it would still be an offense. Have you guys got a more simple way of me interpreting this rule or to help me get it right please?
In red above, but here's a more specific explanation.

The "gain an advantage" language really doesn't mean what it sounds like. That's for historical reasons, as there used to be an actual meaning. So don't get caught up in the words "gaining an advantage." (OS have evolved quite a bit over the years.)

A player in OSP at the time a teammate plays/touches the ball
  • is freed of the OS restrictions if a defender deliberately plays the ball (other than making a save)
  • remains restricted if
    • the ball is deflected by an opponent, or
    • a defender makes a save (which is usually the GK, but can be any player)
The distinction between play and deflection can get into a high level of nuance. The simplest way of looking at it to start with is asking whether the action by the defender was a conscious act or not. If the defender tries to kick or block the ball and makes contact, it is a deliberate play, even if there is no control. If the ball happens to hit the defender, or the defender reflexively stabs at it is as it goes by, then it is merely a deflection.

I can't access it at the moment, but the site http://www.law-11.com/delib-play--deflection had a pretty good piece on deflections vs. saves. It is a bit dated, but I don't know that anything has changed significantly fromwhen it was made.
 

markref

Well-Known Member
Level 5 Referee
Think about the goalkeeper saving the ball and it goes to an attacker in an offside position. The player is therefore called offside. Anything similar where an outfield player is trying to stop the ball but not play it should also be called offside if it goes to an attacker.

For example, if a player jumps to head the ball clear and it scuffs off his head and goes to an attacker in an offside position the player intended to play the ball, so this resets the offside. If it simply hits his head and goes through to the same player then it doesn't. In one he's made a conscious decision to play the ball, while in the other he hasn't.
 

wazztie16

Level 7 Referee
Level 7 Referee
Imo, the way to look at it is 'did the defending player go for the ball, which would make it deliberate play, or did it just hit them without them doing anything (back turned, as an example), which would not be deliberate play'?

Starting out, I think that's the easiest way to work it out.

Deliberate save is different, it's if the keeper or a defending player keep the ball out the goal and its an obvious save or block.

I'm sure there'll be someone better qualified along soon with an answer though.
 

Aconman62

New Member
Level 7 Referee
In red above, but here's a more specific explanation.

The "gain an advantage" language really doesn't mean what it sounds like. That's for historical reasons, as there used to be an actual meaning. So don't get caught up in the words "gaining an advantage." (OS have evolved quite a bit over the years.)

A player in OSP at the time a teammate plays/touches the ball
  • is freed of the OS restrictions if a defender deliberately plays the ball (other than making a save)
  • remains restricted if
    • the ball is deflected by an opponent, or
    • a defender makes a save (which is usually the GK, but can be any player)
The distinction between play and deflection can get into a high level of nuance. The simplest way of looking at it to start with is asking whether the action by the defender was a conscious act or not. If the defender tries to kick or block the ball and makes contact, it is a deliberate play, even if there is no control. If the ball happens to hit the defender, or the defender reflexively stabs at it is as it goes by, then it is merely a deflection.

I can't access it at the moment, but the site http://www.law-11.com/delib-play--deflection had a pretty good piece on deflections vs. saves. It is a bit dated, but I don't know that anything has changed significantly fromwhen it was made.
Thanks for that detailed reply. Will need to read it a few times to sink in. Lots of jargon I need to get used to but I suppose I will !
 

Aconman62

New Member
Level 7 Referee
Think about the goalkeeper saving the ball and it goes to an attacker in an offside position. The player is therefore called offside. Anything similar where an outfield player is trying to stop the ball but not play it should also be called offside if it goes to an attacker.

For example, if a player jumps to head the ball clear and it scuffs off his head and goes to an attacker in an offside position the player intended to play the ball, so this resets the offside. If it simply hits his head and goes through to the same player then it doesn't. In one he's made a conscious decision to play the ball, while in the other he hasn't.
Thanks Mark. Useful too. Intention is king. Resets offside means is not offside and does not reset offside means is offside then in layman terms. Everyday is a school day
 

Aconman62

New Member
Level 7 Referee
Imo, the way to look at it is 'did the defending player go for the ball, which would make it deliberate play, or did it just hit them without them doing anything (back turned, as an example), which would not be deliberate play'?

Starting out, I think that's the easiest way to work it out.

Deliberate save is different, it's if the keeper or a defending player keep the ball out the goal and its an obvious save or block.

I'm sure there'll be someone better qualified along soon with an answer though.
The first part is nice and simple for me. Thanks!
 

DJIC

New Member
As a new referee, I wouldn’t overcomplicate, if it looks offside give it, safe refereering. Trying to explain a deflection compared to a deliberate play is hard sell for an experienced official. Your match control will be jeopardised. Others might disagree but unless its close to a back pass from a defending player then call offside.

Parks football you are on your own, facing up to 16+ annoyed players/managers isn’t worth the aggravation for offside, give free kick, move on.
 

Aconman62

New Member
Level 7 Referee
As a new referee, I wouldn’t overcomplicate, if it looks offside give it, safe refereering. Trying to explain a deflection compared to a deliberate play is hard sell for an experienced official. Your match control will be jeopardised. Others might disagree but unless its close to a back pass from a defending player then call offside.

Parks football you are on your own, facing up to 16+ annoyed players/managers isn’t worth the aggravation for offside, give free kick, move on.
Thanks. Wise words. Looking to build my confidence with minimal friction!
 

one

RefChat Addict
Level 7 Referee
And of course don't forget the definition of save. Not all blocking of goalbound shot are saves.

Screenshot_20211125-200011.jpg
 

Martiju

Well-Known Member
Level 6 Referee
As a new referee, I wouldn’t overcomplicate, if it looks offside give it, safe refereering. Trying to explain a deflection compared to a deliberate play is hard sell for an experienced official. Your match control will be jeopardised. Others might disagree but unless its close to a back pass from a defending player then call offside.

Parks football you are on your own, facing up to 16+ annoyed players/managers isn’t worth the aggravation for offside, give free kick, move on.
We've been here plenty of times before, but to me this isn't 'safe refereeing', it's adjusting the laws to suit you and the laws say that this is not an offence. I'm all in favour of giving benefit of the doubt, but if there's a deliberate play for the ball then you must wave down any club lino's flag and explain (briefly) afterwards. Yes they'll disagree (they do at higher levels as well), but you will have applied the laws correctly.
 

markref

Well-Known Member
Level 5 Referee
As a new referee, I wouldn’t overcomplicate, if it looks offside give it, safe refereering. Trying to explain a deflection compared to a deliberate play is hard sell for an experienced official. Your match control will be jeopardised. Others might disagree but unless its close to a back pass from a defending player then call offside.

Parks football you are on your own, facing up to 16+ annoyed players/managers isn’t worth the aggravation for offside, give free kick, move on.
That's good advice until the team you penalise says "but last week's ref said it was this, so you're wrong!" - and you are! You've tried to adjust the law to give yourself an easier life and actually potentially made it harder. There will be ones in the middle you get wrong but at least if you've tried to apply Law correctly then you can justify a decision.

I don't actually think this comes up that often, at least in games I've done, so don't stress about what to do if it does. As long as you know the Law then you will be able to make an informed decision about offside or not. Take your time - there's no prizes for being really quick but wrong!

If you use club Assts then when you brief them tell them that you don't want them to flag the offside until the player actually gets the ball. Also, make sure they know to put the flag down when you over-rule, and give a good clear signal to tell them to do it.
 

Aconman62

New Member
Level 7 Referee
That's good advice until the team you penalise says "but last week's ref said it was this, so you're wrong!" - and you are! You've tried to adjust the law to give yourself an easier life and actually potentially made it harder. There will be ones in the middle you get wrong but at least if you've tried to apply Law correctly then you can justify a decision.

I don't actually think this comes up that often, at least in games I've done, so don't stress about what to do if it does. As long as you know the Law then you will be able to make an informed decision about offside or not. Take your time - there's no prizes for being really quick but wrong!

If you use club Assts then when you brief them tell them that you don't want them to flag the offside until the player actually gets the ball. Also, make sure they know to put the flag down when you over-rule, and give a good clear signal to tell them to do it.
Great stuff, especially about taking your time and lino calls. I think that stops players trying to play off the asst refs v referee where they see a flag.
 

refeire

Active Member
That bit about a 'save' is if the GK saves a shot and it falls to a player who was in an offside position at the time the ball was shot at the GK, then it is offside, stop play IFK out. If he was onside at the time of the shot and runs through to hammer it in, he is onside.

If a defender deliberately tries to play the ball and makes contact with it, but it still flows through to an attacker who is in an offside position, then no offside offence occurs (because the defender played it through to the attacker). Check out Mbappe's goal in the nations league final for an example of this.
 
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Martiju

Well-Known Member
Level 6 Referee
That bit about a 'save' is if the GK saves a shot and it falls to a player who was in an offside position at the time the ball was shot at the GK, then it is offside, stop play IFK out. If he was onside at the time of the shot and runs through to hammer it in, he is offside.

If a defender deliberately tries to play the ball and makes contact with it, but it still flows through to an attacker who is offside, then no offside offence occurs (because the defender played it through to the attacker). Check out Mbappe's goal in the nations league final for an example of this.
I think your final 'offside' is meant to read 'onside'.
 

refeire

Active Member
I think your final 'offside' is meant to read 'onside'.
True, I have edited it to read '"an attacker who is in an offside position", as it's not an offence to be in an offside position and receiving the ball from a defender who deliberately played it means no offside offence occurs
 

Martiju

Well-Known Member
Level 6 Referee
I don't actually think this comes up that often, at least in games I've done, so don't stress about what to do if it does. As long as you know the Law then you will be able to make an informed decision about offside or not. Take your time - there's no prizes for being really quick but wrong!

If you use club Assts then when you brief them tell them that you don't want them to flag the offside until the player actually gets the ball. Also, make sure they know to put the flag down when you over-rule, and give a good clear signal to tell them to do it.
Excellent advice in my opinion, especially about briefing club assts.

It's come up twice for me this year (including last weekend, when I was on the line) - both times led to goals as well. In the first, the manager showed me after the game (on video) that the goalscorer was offside when the ball was played, but as they rolled it on it clearly showed the defender jumping to head it so I was able to explain. Last weekend was more difficult, as I was on the opposite side from the bench, the player in an offside position was yards behind the defender when pretty much the same thing happened. After the goal they went a bit crazy, so all I could do was explain over and over to the players that it was a deliberate play (there was no doubt) and that 'resets' offside. They - and the bench - still weren't happy, but I was able to drive home knowing I'd done the right thing - the life of a match official!
 

Martiju

Well-Known Member
Level 6 Referee
True, I have edited it to read '"an attacker who is in an offside position", as it's not an offence to be in an offside position and receiving the ball from a defender who deliberately played it means no offside offence occurs
Sorry - I included all your quote by mistake - I meant at the end of the first para?
 

santa sangria

RefChat Addict
As a new referee, I wouldn’t overcomplicate, if it looks offside give it, safe refereering. Trying to explain a deflection compared to a deliberate play is hard sell for an experienced official. Your match control will be jeopardised. Others might disagree but unless its close to a back pass from a defending player then call offside.

Parks football you are on your own, facing up to 16+ annoyed players/managers isn’t worth the aggravation for offside, give free kick, move on.
Yeah… no… I disagree. When you make a big decision you are probably going to have to sell it to one side or the other. Planning to guess is not a good policy IMHO and is much more likely to see you caught out.

The nuances of offside and handball are well worth learning and calling as best you can. The good news is, with offside and deliberate play, players are used to this and there have been high profile prem cases over the last 5 years. The bad news is that handball and “justifiable” is much more vague! Good luck.👍
 
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