A&H

Taking your assistants advice

es1

RefChat Addict
Using the winning goal in the Doncaster v Oldham FA cup game as reference...

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/av/football/46979412

As ref you see and incident, give a decision. Assistant (much futhter away) flags you over, you go with him.

Happy days if he's right and you're wrong. But vice versa and it's a recipe for trouble!

I always place a lot of trust in my assistants and this incident makes me question why? I've had assistants give decisions I've disagreed, and have overruled on throw ins, with but, thankfully, never a uni.

Sounds easy to say you'd not do something similar but you're essentially questioning their judgement openly if you ignore them.

I suppose at what point would you feel uncomfortable backing your assistants?
 
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I think as the ref you need to consider that your far AR knows it's quite rare for the far AR to intervene on an incident so they're not going to be doing it unless they're absolutely certain beyond a shadow of a doubt that they're right and the intervention is absolutely necessary.
As the ref you might consider 'yes, I see what you're saying but I was able to see something you didn't' and stick to your original decision....but for something like that, go with it.

Incidentally, in the Australian A-league's 3rd grand final, Central Coast Mariners took a corner. A Newcastle Jets player stuck his arm above his head and knocked the ball away. As blatant as it gets. Inexplicably, there were only 2 people in the entire stadium who didn't see it - referee Mark Shield and his AR.

Fortunately, the far AR did see it. And for something that blatant, it warrants far AR intervention.

However, despite the AR telling him what he saw (this all came out later), the referee chose to ignore it and not award the penalty - incidentally, this was in the dying minutes and CCM were down 1-0

Now that I've started talking about it - compounding the error, the CCM goalkeeper was upfield anyway for the corner. Shield had his arms raised as the players were mobbing him, and the keeper, in frustration, slapped at one of the raised hands - earning a red card, and rightly so.

Now, while the keeper is wholly responsible for is actions, it's still a red card situation that the referee created through his own error.

As a side note, at that time the minimum suspension for any sort of assault on a match official (physical contact on a match official = red card = assault on a match official) was 12 months. Football Federation Australia determined that this was way too harsh for this offence and while they were bound to apply their minimum standards (although they bent the rules by 'suspending' the suspension to permit some international appearances), they changed it later to introduce lower grade offences with shorter suspensions.

And at the top level, you need to trust that your AR is good enough.

At grassroots? It's much tougher. We've all had ARs flag for fouls they shouldn't have, or call us over to tell a player should be booked for something that was under our nose anyway. It's tricky, and you can only take it case-by-case.

As a mentor and assessor, I've always advised ARs of the importance of good flagwork. Because it's all about credibility. If, as a ref, you get an AR you've never seen before and their flagwork is sharp, you presume they're competent and are more likely to trust them. If their flagwork is sloppy, then the presumption is that the rest of their officiating is just as poor.
 
Re the clip, I dont think its credible for the AR to give that.
If you compare it to the Millwall one on the same day, the perception is, how can one be spotted, and,a seemingly more obvious one be missed
Nothing set in stone but my prematch is along lines of, if am looking at it, I will call it (for better or for worse). If however its a kmi and am the only person in (insert game place) who has seen it my way and I have clearly fecked it up, then let me know. I might stick with what I saw, but I welcome your input at that point

A good AR realises they are there to assist you with the running of the game whilst recognising that you are ultimately the main man. If they mentally comprehend that, then the assistance they provide should be beneficial. They then also accept there might be a time their input is not taken on board and realise this is not a reflection on their ability, or lack of.

I would just advise a slight note of caution on the above post, someone whose flagging is excellent is capable of selling you down the river too and mentally we go with it, as their decisions is so clear and confident, we get lulled into thinking we will take it, opposite to poor flag man, we might undermine his kmi flag as his technique is poor, just be careful that we dont underestimate his actual decision making

Suppose a simple way of expressing it is, you dont really want, any surprises, from the AR

I referee with ARs then same as I do without them. Am ready to give fks in their control path so am content to take their flag if it goes up
I like to consider I am able to make my offside call and have a rough idea if someone is off or not when using ARs, so its rare to get/not get a flag am not expecting. 9 out of 10, prob take them, but am very willing to overrule a kmi offside if am totally confident the flag is wrong.

Credibility is key. Yes we all want the right call, and of course comms makes things slightly diff, esp for those maybe fouls. I dont want flags or advice for maybe fouls that I am looking at. For better or worse, thsts the referees call,
If we are both looking at say a sfp decision and am going yellow yet AR going red, then unless its criminal, leave it to the ref. I might occasionally welcome input here
If am going red then i be astounded if you as AR can tell me to go yellow
On the pk clip posted, as ref, no, I dont welcome the AR advice, perversly had it been on the other end of the six yard box, maybe, yes
Some calls just have to be left to the referee, thats why he is out there
 
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Interesting post @Ciley Myrus

I say roughly the same in my pre match, if I'm the only one in the ground seeing a pen one way or another help me out. We'll have a discussion and I may still ignore you but at least I've given myself an opportunity to get it right!

I do however disagree with overruling on offsides. To me, they're always with the AR unless they're on the arse or wrong in law. Overruling here is worse than any other scenario IMO, that's the job he's there to do!
 
And at the top level, you need to trust that your AR is good enough.

That's a good way of looking at it!

I come across plenty of excellent ARs and the odd one who you know could cause you trouble. In fact a good friend of mine as AR (well known for causing trouble!) messaged me last week saying a ref overruled his flag for a pen for shirt pulling from a corner. He expected the ref to back him and he didn't!
 
Interesting post @Ciley Myrus

I say roughly the same in my pre match, if I'm the only one in the ground seeing a pen one way or another help me out. We'll have a discussion and I may still ignore you but at least I've given myself an opportunity to get it right!

I do however disagree with overruling on offsides. To me, they're always with the AR unless they're on the arse or wrong in law. Overruling here is worse than any other scenario IMO, that's the job he's there to do!


They are there to alert the referee that in their opinion someone is in an offside position to should be penalised as such. The person however who makes the ultimate call is, or should always be, the referee.
The flag exists to alert ref that AR says someone is off. The ref then, vast majority of time, goes, yip, I buy that. If ref is totally sure its not offside, then, dont take it
The lotg give the same responsibilty to AR for throws (which we would routinley over rule) as they do for offside
Same as if am perfectly placed to see a offside yet there is no flag? With comms, am def asking! Without, sorry, am giving it.
Rare, yes, but just cos AR says/does not say offside, is 99%. The other per cent, is you
 
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They are there to alert the referee that in their opinion someone is in an offside position to should be penalised as such. The person however who makes the ultimate call is, or should always be, the referee.

Fair comment.

Must hear this or similar every other game

"that's never offside ref, you know it ref and you can overrule him"

I've often thought it looked close and occasionally thought the AR probably got it wrong but never crossed my mind to overrule if they're in a credible position to give it.
 
So much of this depends on who your ARs are. I ref games with ARs who are as experienced (or more) than I am. I'm rarely going to overrule a flag --on OS it's pretty much only going to be because I'm aware of something they aren't (perhaps a play by the defender as the ball was going through or they couldn't tell if the ball was played to theOSP player by an attacker or defender and I can). I also ref with newbie ARs. I try to rely on their flags (and non flags) as I don't want to undermine their confidence, but the more important the decision the more willing I am to takeover. (For example had a no flag by a new AR that I whistled for OS anyway--on a break away that would have tied the game. You can imagine the outcry from the touchline. AR more or less told me after the game he was afraid to make the call.)
 
I'm pretty sure No 9 performs the extraordinary feat of being offside TWICE during this play...
 
Can't believe that (The AR being 'afraid' I mean)

ARs at that level make unpopular calls within 5 yards of a hostile crowd every game, every week!
But the York Supply league is paid in front of one man and his mate. The AR could have been a 16 year old, which is likely in York. They will be afraid to give the offside if in their first few games.
 
But the York Supply league is paid in front of one man and his mate. The AR could have been a 16 year old, which is likely in York. They will be afraid to give the offside if in their first few games.


I will be cruel (but factual) and say, I don't have any sympathy with that. Of course we all start somewhere and of course numbers dictate and of course it can be seen as better than nobody, but, the flip side, if your walking out there as an appointed official, you have to be up to the task.
The onus might indeed be more on the referee and it would be pointless giving a 15 min brief about every last thing that could happen, but, you need the AR to at least be capable of the extreme basics, ball in and out of play and alerting the referee to potential offside offences. You don;t want the AR to simply be a shop dummy, that could batter their confidence more than actually making the calls, for right or wrong, which is a learning experience in itself.
 
But the York Supply league is paid in front of one man and his mate. The AR could have been a 16 year old, which is likely in York. They will be afraid to give the offside if in their first few games.

Sorry Lincs - that's me! I only read 1st line of op and thought we were talking about the FA Cup!:oops::angel:
 
When I work with NARs I will go with them unless I have seen something different. I always tell themin my breif if I am just about to make a massive rick please get involved. But there is one ref who is in my area only expects ball in and out and offsides. No fouls at all .
 
That AR is in the wrong job then :(

Or just too new.

At the risking of boring folks, I'll give a bit of background. I ref in the US in AYSO (American Youth Soccer Organization), and I think our model is unique. USSF has granted AYSO permission to separately train and certify referees under the USSF umbrella. (There is a program for crossing from general USSF certification to AYSO certification and vice versa.) Why? Because AYSO uses volunteer referees. How volunteers are gathered varies a bit by location, but typically each team is responsible for finding a couple of volunteers, who are then trained. (8 and under and younger refs get simpler training for the small sided games.) This means that the majority of referees are parents, and there are a number of older siblings, family friends, uncles, etc. When I teach, my new volunteers range from those who played competitive soccer to those who have never even watched soccer but were the only one on the team willing to try. In the younger ages the volunteers do their own kids' games, and as they get older they do other games to preserve neutrality. Most of our referees really start at 10U--and because we require volunteers, we typically have an R and two ARs even on those games--not that you necessarily need them at that level, but it helps a lot in getting referees trained (and its a lot less scary to start at 10U than 14U). And a subset of those folks get the bug and continue on as volunteers after their kids leave the program--most of the referees doing our 19U and 16U games fall into that group. (And some who get the bug cross certify and start doing games for club soccer (and pay) and some move on to higher levels of reffing--although I take it very seriously, given other factors in my life, I stick to volunteering with AYSO, though that may change after my youngest goes off to college next year.)

So to go back to the AR I referenced, he volunteered for the first time when his kid was 12 or 13 was in his first handful of games. So he was afraid to make the call because he lacked the confidence to do so in a critical moment due to inexperience. Whether he'll evolve into a quality official its far to soon to know.
 
When I work with NARs I will go with them unless I have seen something different. I always tell themin my breif if I am just about to make a massive rick please get involved. But there is one ref who is in my area only expects ball in and out and offsides. No fouls at all .

There's one in my area exactly the same.
And never ever give penalties.
 
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