The Ref Stop

suspension due to low club marks?

H

hungryauthour

New Member
I find myself in a situation that I really don't know how to deal with.
I've been refereeing on a Sunday league for 5 years (LEAGUE A) and on a Saturday league for 3 years (league b)
Twp seasons ago, Both leagues have made the decision to stop giving me appointments due to poor performance. This was done without informing me or giving me feedback and advice on how to improve. I understand that leagues have the right to appoint who they want but surely if they had concerns then they should raise this up with me
How am I expected to deal with this and the odd occasion when I do get a chance to referee such as county cups or im able yo pick up a game , I am severely doubting myself and I feel like I'm not good enough.

Club marks
LEAGUE A (league average: 85)
2019-2020 (49)
2020-2021 (21)
2021-2022 (75)
2022-2023 (55)
2023-2024 (N/A)
2024-2025 (N/A)

LEAGUE B
2022-2023 (61)
 
The Ref Stop
hungryauthour said:
I find myself in a situation that I really don't know how to deal with.
I've been refereeing on a Sunday league for 5 years (LEAGUE A) and on a Saturday league for 3 years (league b)
Twp seasons ago, Both leagues have made the decision to stop giving me appointments due to poor performance. This was done without informing me or giving me feedback and advice on how to improve. I understand that leagues have the right to appoint who they want but surely if they had concerns then they should raise this up with me
How am I expected to deal with this and the odd occasion when I do get a chance to referee such as county cups or im able yo pick up a game , I am severely doubting myself and I feel like I'm not good enough.

Club marks
LEAGUE A (league average: 85)
2019-2020 (49)
2020-2021 (21)
2021-2022 (75)
2022-2023 (55)
2023-2024 (N/A)
2024-2025 (N/A)

LEAGUE B
2022-2023 (61)
Click to expand...
The marks are very low, but their accuracy depends on how many games you refereed in each season and the number of different clubs you encountered.
Assuming the numbers are statistically reliable, what do you think is going wrong?
 
Do these leagues find themselves in the unique position of having too many referees? I’m struggling to see why any league would dump a referee without trying to keep him.
At least if they do decide to remove him from the list then they should tell him why. Just saying “club marks too low” doesn’t say what the problem is, so doesn’t give any chance to do anything about it. This doesn’t help anyone, including the league.

Just because your club marks are low doesn’t necessarily mean anything. Some clubs always mark lower than others. If you get two of those playing each other in a hard game with several cards then you’re on to a loser from the start.
I assume the second season you didn’t do many games due to the season finishing early because of Covid, so a couple of really low club marks would have more impact on your season average than normal.

Did the Sunday league not do anything in the second season when your average was 21? If one of our referees was apparently struggling like this then I’d be going to watch him to see what was going on / wrong to try to help him.
The other thing is, what happened between 20-21 and 21-22? Your average went from 21 to 75. I know it’s a while ago but can you remember any difference between games in those periods?
 
es1 said:
the above suggestions are good...but I find the attitude of the league/appointing officer most disappointing
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It might well be taken out of his hands. If a referee is getting complaints in every single game he or she referees the clubs will ask him to deal with it by stopping using that referee. If he doesn't they can call an EGM with a motion to remove him from his role, that has happened on several occasions that I'm aware of. I was involved in one such occasion as a team manager where there was one particular referee who was handing out cards like confetti, he was averaging 8 cautions a game in womens football as well as plenty of reds. I was even sent off by him for saying, and this is word for word "that's a bit inconsistent <refsname>". It was in the days where caution reports had to provide the reason for it, and I will always remember one that said "she looked at me in a manner that suggested dissent".

So the league managers, coaches and secretaries got together to first try to persuade the RefsSec to stop using him. He didn't so they called an EGM with a proposal to stop using that referee, unanimously voted on, but he kept using him. So another EGM was called with a motion to remove him from his role, which was also unanimously accepted.
 
RustyRef said:
It might well be taken out of his hands. If a referee is getting complaints in every single game he or she referees the clubs will ask him to deal with it by stopping using that referee. If he doesn't they can call an EGM with a motion to remove him from his role, that has happened on several occasions that I'm aware of. I was involved in one such occasion as a team manager where there was one particular referee who was handing out cards like confetti, he was averaging 8 cautions a game in womens football as well as plenty of reds. I was even sent off by him for saying, and this is word for word "that's a bit inconsistent <refsname>". It was in the days where caution reports had to provide the reason for it, and I will always remember one that said "she looked at me in a manner that suggested dissent".

So the league managers, coaches and secretaries got together to first try to persuade the RefsSec to stop using him. He didn't so they called an EGM with a proposal to stop using that referee, unanimously voted on, but he kept using him. So another EGM was called with a motion to remove him from his role, which was also unanimously accepted.
Click to expand...
But surely for it to get to this stage, the Ref Sec has already missed the opportunity the raise the issue with the referee in question and try to support them to improve their performance?
 
hungryauthour said:
I find myself in a situation that I really don't know how to deal with.
I've been refereeing on a Sunday league for 5 years (LEAGUE A) and on a Saturday league for 3 years (league b)
Twp seasons ago, Both leagues have made the decision to stop giving me appointments due to poor performance. This was done without informing me or giving me feedback and advice on how to improve. I understand that leagues have the right to appoint who they want but surely if they had concerns then they should raise this up with me
How am I expected to deal with this and the odd occasion when I do get a chance to referee such as county cups or im able yo pick up a game , I am severely doubting myself and I feel like I'm not good enough.

Club marks
LEAGUE A (league average: 85)
2019-2020 (49)
2020-2021 (21)
2021-2022 (75)
2022-2023 (55)
2023-2024 (N/A)
2024-2025 (N/A)

LEAGUE B
2022-2023 (61)
Click to expand...
Have you asked for help from your CFA? If you give them your average marks they will know that you need some help, perhaps a mentor to come and watch you.

Bear in mind that where clubs mark less than 61 they have to provide written justification, and will generally only mark below that if they felt that you were really bad. The mark are so low it means that on many games both clubs will likely be reporting you below 61 and sending reports, and that to me suggests there is something fundamentally wrong with your game. Club marks are far from perfect, but I can say from experience that it is extremely rare for both teams to report below 61.

What the leagues should have done, rather than just stopping appointing you, is provide you feedback based on the numerous written reports they have received.
 
RustyRef said:
It might well be taken out of his hands. If a referee is getting complaints in every single game he or she referees the clubs will ask him to deal with it by stopping using that referee. If he doesn't they can call an EGM with a motion to remove him from his role, that has happened on several occasions that I'm aware of. I was involved in one such occasion as a team manager where there was one particular referee who was handing out cards like confetti, he was averaging 8 cautions a game in womens football as well as plenty of reds. I was even sent off by him for saying, and this is word for word "that's a bit inconsistent <refsname>". It was in the days where caution reports had to provide the reason for it, and I will always remember one that said "she looked at me in a manner that suggested dissent".

So the league managers, coaches and secretaries got together to first try to persuade the RefsSec to stop using him. He didn't so they called an EGM with a proposal to stop using that referee, unanimously voted on, but he kept using him. So another EGM was called with a motion to remove him from his role, which was also unanimously accepted.
Click to expand...

Doesn't seem relevant to this case?

I get that it can happen in exceptional circumstances but there must be due process which doesn't seem to have happened here.

If there's an issue then training/guidance/support should to be given/offered. There should be dialogue between the ref and league to explain concerns etc.
 
RefereeX said:
But surely for it to get to this stage, the Ref Sec has already missed the opportunity the raise the issue with the referee in question and try to support them to improve their performance?
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Absolutely, if they haven't provided any feedback that is really bad. Not saying it is the case here, but sometimes any feedback goes in one ear and out of the other, some referees just don't want to learn. I know of one referee in the London area who goes round telling everyone he is level 3 when he is actually a level 7, and describes himself as the best referee in London. I've watched him referee and he is an absolute car crash, I tried to give him feedback but he asked why he should accept feedback from a referee that is no better than him.

I'll be honest, I've stopped giving games to referees and then removed them from the panel at the end of the season, but only after multiple attempts at getting them to improve had failed. And often the club complaints went far beyond pure refereeing competence, things like turning up late, wearing a coat, not moving out of the centre circle, demanding being paid before the game, and so on. If a referee is causing games to kick off late more often than not I can't keep appointing him.
 
es1 said:
Doesn't seem relevant to this case?

I get that it can happen in exceptional circumstances but there must be due process which doesn't seem to have happened here.

If there's an issue then training/guidance/support should to be given/offered. There should be dialogue between the ref and league to explain concerns etc.
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We don't know that necessarily. For two leagues, presumably with different appointment officers, to stop giving games to a referee there is going to be a reason. Very few leagues are blessed with enough referees to kick someone out with at least trying to improve them.

We don't know how many games were refereed in each season but, assuming at least 10, averaging as low as 21 indicates a very real problem. As I've already said, no league should stop using a referee without passing on feedback they have received from clubs, and if that is the case it is very poor. But equally there can be no doubt that a referee averaging below the mark clubs have to submit a written report for has serious flaws with their game and needs help from their CFA. I've appointed hundreds of referees over many years and I don't think I've ever seen an average mark over the course of a season under 40.
 
I would actually prefer some feedback from the clubs themselves on the day. Points are one thing, but they don't tell the whole story of what you could have done better. I only do youth games, and the only feedback I get is from the coaches at the end.
 
My Son's U13's game got abandoned just before Christmas. The games are an absolute doddle to referee
I wasn't there, but the I've heard about the young referee involved
There are some referees for whom I firmly believe the best advice, 'to find something else to do with their spare time'
ANY other advice will only prolong the misery for the referee in question
 
Notwithstanding all the above chat, I find it quite disconcerting that a referee with a collective of the club marks quoted (who obviously has basic problems) hasn't been identified by their League or County FA as someone who needs watching/mentoring/guidance/re-educating/whatever.
Maybe it's just me ... (?) 🤔
 
Kes said:
Notwithstanding all the above chat, I find it quite disconcerting that a referee with a collective of the club marks quoted (who obviously has basic problems) hasn't been identified by their League or County FA as someone who needs watching/mentoring/guidance/re-educating/whatever.
Maybe it's just me ... (?) 🤔
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It used to be the case that leagues had to submit marks for all match officials to their CFA annually, that stopped a few years ago. Which means, unless the league flag the issue to them, or they struggle in county cup games, CFAs will have pretty much zero visibility of referees that are struggling.
 
Homer Ref said:
I would actually prefer some feedback from the clubs themselves on the day. Points are one thing, but they don't tell the whole story of what you could have done better. I only do youth games, and the only feedback I get is from the coaches at the end.
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Given it will likely be the coaches marking you, I would like to think the feedback they give you at the end will correlate with mark they submit for you.
 
RustyRef said:
Given it will likely be the coaches marking you, I would like to think the feedback they give you at the end will correlate with mark they submit for you.
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I don't think this happens in Scotland... not that I have heard,
 
RustyRef said:
It used to be the case that leagues had to submit marks for all match officials to their CFA annually, that stopped a few years ago. Which means, unless the league flag the issue to them, or they struggle in county cup games, CFAs will have pretty much zero visibility of referees that are struggling.
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This having apparently been an issue over several years, (including during the period of Covid), I would certainly suggest that you contact your CFA, speak to your RDO and take his advice guidance (for reason identified by RustyRef). He may well be able to obtain more specific information from the leagues involved.
As others have mentioned mentoring / coaching may be of benefit, but without knowing the reasons for the low marks it is difficult to offer any constructive advice.
 
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