Ref4Me

Stones send off - Man City vs Villa

RefIADad

Well-Known Member
Level 7 Referee
https://www.nbcsports.com/video/john-stones-receives-red-card-manchester-city-against-aston-villa (I realize this is likely geo-blocked. If someone can also post a version for those of you in the UK to view, I'd appreciate it!)

At the end of the sequence, sending Stones off was the right call. My question is how did this even need a VAR review? The "challenge" happened in front of the benches, so you'd have the fourth official with a really good look and even AR1 likely having a decent angle. I'm not sure how Anthony Taylor and AR1 (I think Neil Davies was AR1 based on the order of ARs in the assignment listing I saw) couldn't have been in Coote's (EDIT - It was Bankes and not Coote) ear advising a send-off. I realize Coote (EDIT-Bankes) had a long run after the cross-field ball, so I can understand if he didn't have a great view. But the two assistants on that sideline - particularly Taylor - should have been in Coote's ear advising a send off.

To me, it just feels like another example of going with the "safe" option of a caution and then allowing VAR to work as a backstop instead of stepping up and making the send-off call on the field.
 
Last edited:

Big Cat

RefChat Addict
Level 5 Referee
https://www.nbcsports.com/video/john-stones-receives-red-card-manchester-city-against-aston-villa (I realize this is likely geo-blocked. If someone can also post a version for those of you in the UK to view, I'd appreciate it!)

At the end of the sequence, sending Stones off was the right call. My question is how did this even need a VAR review? The "challenge" happened in front of the benches, so you'd have the fourth official with a really good look and even AR1 likely having a decent angle. I'm not sure how Anthony Taylor and AR1 (I think Neil Davies was AR1 based on the order of ARs in the assignment listing I saw) couldn't have been in Coote's ear advising a send-off. I realize Coote had a long run after the cross-field ball, so I can understand if he didn't have a great view. But the two assistants on that sideline - particularly Taylor - should have been in Coote's ear advising a send off.

To me, it just feels like another example of going with the "safe" option of a caution and then allowing VAR to work as a backstop instead of stepping up and making the send-off call on the field.
Just the dynamics of how the game works with VAR. If the R has any doubt, he cautions and then VAR does the rest. Given that the PGMOL is essentially a 'closed shop', missing a KMI doesn't seem to matter to the R's as much as would be expected
 

es1

RefChat Addict
Level 4 Referee
i'm not arguing against a red here, what i am doing is suggesting there's a difference between challenges like this and other examples of SFP (high, studs showing one and two footed tackles) and they shouldnt warrant the same level of punishment.

this is an attempt to kick the ball, it's not a tackle. he's late and misses the ball but in the follow through from his kicking moting kicks the player hard and high therefore i'm ok with a red but there is absolutely zero intent to do anything remotely dangerous and it seems harsh to ban someone for 3 games for this.
 

QuaverRef

I used to be indecisive but now i'm not so sure
Level 6 Referee
Definitely a red card. If you’re going to go in like that it has to be a case of all ball, no man.
 

JamesL

RefChat Addict
Level 4 Referee
Slightly Moot point but I thought the ref was Peter Banks 😊
It's a red card for me, ticks SFP considerations for force, height, point of contact.
What I couldn't get was both managers disagreeing. So, what do we refs know?
 

RustyRef

Administrator
Staff member
I can certainly understand why it was missed real time. It isn't one where he has clattered into a standing leg, rather the opponent's leg was high in the air when caught. My initial reaction was he was just a bit late, but on the first replay I realised it was much worse than that and should be SFP.

VAR had a good night yesterday, this decision and converting the Spurs free kick to a penalty are what it was intended for.
 

RefIADad

Well-Known Member
Level 7 Referee
I can certainly understand why it was missed real time. It isn't one where he has clattered into a standing leg, rather the opponent's leg was high in the air when caught. My initial reaction was he was just a bit late, but on the first replay I realised it was much worse than that and should be SFP.

VAR had a good night yesterday, this decision and converting the Spurs free kick to a penalty are what it was intended for.

No question this is a tough one to catch as the center. Bankes had a long run to make with the switch of play. I don't fault him on this one. Had he issued the send-off in real time, it would have been a great spot. Also agree that this is the type of play that does paint VAR in a positive light. Ultimately, the right decision was made.

I'll go back to questioning how Anthony Taylor as the fourth official could have missed it. The only thing I could think of was the contact occurred on the opposite side of his viewpoint, so he was screened by the Villa player's body. But other than that, I'm struggling to see how he missed it. The play happened in front of and in between the benches. He's close to play and not having to make a long run, so his head should be still. This is the type of foul that a fourth official should be able to identify and provide advice to the center on the right type of misconduct. If I were assessing the match, I'd ask some questions about what he saw from his 4O vantage point.
 

RustyRef

Administrator
Staff member
No question this is a tough one to catch as the center. Bankes had a long run to make with the switch of play. I don't fault him on this one. Had he issued the send-off in real time, it would have been a great spot. Also agree that this is the type of play that does paint VAR in a positive light. Ultimately, the right decision was made.

I'll go back to questioning how Anthony Taylor as the fourth official could have missed it. The only thing I could think of was the contact occurred on the opposite side of his viewpoint, so he was screened by the Villa player's body. But other than that, I'm struggling to see how he missed it. The play happened in front of and in between the benches. He's close to play and not having to make a long run, so his head should be still. This is the type of foul that a fourth official should be able to identify and provide advice to the center on the right type of misconduct. If I were assessing the match, I'd ask some questions about what he saw from his 4O vantage point.

He could have been doing something else at the time though, perhaps speaking to a manager or someone else in the technical area. It is impossible for the 4th official to always have eyes on the game, that isn't really what they are there for.
 

santa sangria

RefChat Addict
I think that is hard to give as red in real time. Stones is quick to withdraw so it's hard to tell how much contact there is - or how straight his leg is on contact. On reply it's an easy red. But maybe not so many giving a red here in a low level game. It's just so hard to see clearly.
 
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