RefSix

Spurs - Chelsea VAR

JH

RefChat Addict
#1
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If Kane's foot is exactly level, and he's leaning forward, surely the top half of his body is offside? I recall seeing a video about VAR a while ago and how they could make a 3D representation to include the whole body, this is literally just parallel lines on the pitch and it seems them have just looked at the feet. As it is not 100% clear whether on or off, the assistant's decision should have stood for me.

Interestingly, Chelsea brought a laptop out to the sky interviewer I believe, showing their own angle, which is much better than that provided by Sky:

Sarri said it didn't matter than it was offside, it was the assistant who confused the players by stopping. He said the assistant should have carried on until the action was finished and then flagged, as they do in Italy, I'm surprised he knows that this is correct practise for VAR offside decisions. I agree the assistant may have put the defenders off, but it is their own fault for stopping. He then said he doesn't think English officials can use VAR currently.
 
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#2
The 3D Hawkeye was only at the World Cup - I don't think any leagues are implementing it. So, we're stuck with the 2D line. The WC Hawkeye also clearly marked out where each player's line was.
The problem with the footage we receive is the resolution - from pictures like that you can't tell if there are inches in it or not. In fact, the AR is actually in a better position to tell that than we are. Does the VAR have access to a higher resolution image or some other tech to make it clear? Does the VAR Hawkeye software at least mark more clearly each player's feet?
If so, why is that not conveyed to fans?

It's problematic when offsides are discussed and the feet are more or less level but fans don't realise that if the player is leaning forwards then the feet aren't the point that's closes to the goal line.

But from this angle, it's impossible to tell which direction that player is leaning in and if he is leaning past his feet or not.

Based on this image I can't see enough to call an offside - what was the actual decision? Goal or no goal?
 
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JH

RefChat Addict
#3
Based on this image I can't see enough to call an offside - what was the actual decision? Goal or no goal?
The ball was played over the top, Kane rounded the keeper and was brought down. VAR checked offside then penalty, and penalty was awarded, YC to keeper.
 

Ciley Myrus

RefChat Addict
#4
I have not seen it yet, listening to it last night though, should the gk have gone? "wiped out" was the phrase they used, giving me a picture in my head of a gk not really making an attempt for the ball :(
 

JH

RefChat Addict
#5
I have not seen it yet, listening to it last night though, should the gk have gone? "wiped out" was the phrase they used, giving me a picture in my head of a gk not really making an attempt for the ball :(
Kane was never getting to the ball hence the caution, he took a big touch anticipating the contact.
 

Ciley Myrus

RefChat Addict
#6
Kane was never getting to the ball hence the caution, he took a big touch anticipating the contact.
SFP? I catch it later when am home. All I heard about it was , wiped out, and, taken to the cleaners. Sounded a bit red to me but maybe not
 

RobOda

RefChat Addict
#7
I think comparing the images may be irrelevant because Sarri's image is a bit later on and not the 'first point of contact' being used in the Sky image.

However, I think he has two rather valid points;

1. The camera angle used (assuming VAR used the Sky angle) is wrong.

2. The AR not delaying the flag most likely did have an impact.

SFP? I catch it later when am home. All I heard about it was , wiped out, and, taken to the cleaners. Sounded a bit red to me but maybe not
No, it wasn't 'bad', it was just a usual keeper 'tackle' leading with the hands. Kane did the striker thing and leaned his legs into the keeper's body so he got 'flipped' over. Reckless at the most, but yellow for DOSGO I think. You'll enjoy it when you see it! :D
 

Sheffields Finest

Maybe I'm foolish, maybe I'm blind!
#10
At this rate it won’t be long before Kane catches up with the goals of two of the best English strikers of a generation..,..Ricky Lambert and Billy Sharp!
 

alexgr

RefChat Addict
#12
Sarri’s line is clearly doctored - asides from not being at the moment the ball is played, it’s clearly slightly slanted and not parallel
 

Big Cat

RefChat Addict
#14
Interesting to hear both managers slating VAR. Interesting to me anyway, as we're always inclined to seek out opinions which agree with our own
This incident illustrates why the AR's role in offside calls will become redundant. The mandate of a late flag will lead to the following;
a) Less offside calls (potential late flags) for plays which may lead to a goal, but ultimately don't
b) Late flags for all potential offside offences when a goal is scored
c) The AR never having to be an arbiter of offside offences when a goal is scored (the AR won't flag anyway)
All of this massively changes the dynamic of acting as AR and effectively renders the assistant to being a touchline judge (ball in/out)
When is a goal a goal? That's the most concerning thing. Fans have to delay any celebration as every goal is checked. This kills the game imo
 

AlexF

RefChat Addict
#15
Kane was never getting to the ball hence the caution, he took a big touch anticipating the contact.
Uh... hence the caution?

If the referee deemed this to be DOGSO, this would still have been a caution because of the attempt to play the ball by the GK.
 

one

RefChat Addict
#16
I actually think the two pics are exactly the same moment. Have a look at everyone else. They are on exactly the same pose. I think the reason one shows offside and the other level is the camera angle. One show the body over the line because it is a behind angle.

We had this discussion a few times before the world cup. There isn't too much problem with the protocol. The biggest problem for me is that the technology is not good enough to support it (resolution, frame rate, angles...). You have to spend a lot more money to rectify those tech shortcomings. The world cup game did (32+ cameras with many ultra HD and super slow mo - some dedicated to offside) but I doubt FA cup games have even half as much budget for technology.
The second problem is while the protocol is to remove human error, it introduces new ones, like the OP when AR signalled too early, or VAR intervening for non clear errors.
 

Ciley Myrus

RefChat Addict
#17
Uh... hence the caution?

If the referee deemed this to be DOGSO, this would still have been a caution because of the attempt to play the ball by the GK.

IMO thats not an attempt to play the ball and I would have dismissed the gk. I do understand and accept the reasoning for yellow but, for me, he has simply wiped out Kane with no attempt for the ball, its a typical gk run out, charge and take out whatever he gets, ball, man both...
He is saved from the red by the fact Kane is not denied a ogso, for me, the gk "attempt to play the ball" is not valid here, this is a case of gk simply doing whatever it takes to stop the striker, and if that involves wiping the striker out, so be it

I dont think the law was changed to allow keepers a free shot at the striker...it was changed as almost a sympathy vote for defenders who did fairly try to get the ball but narrowly missed out. This is no such case. (had it been ogso of course)
 
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#18
Interesting to hear both managers slating VAR. Interesting to me anyway, as we're always inclined to seek out opinions which agree with our own
This incident illustrates why the AR's role in offside calls will become redundant. The mandate of a late flag will lead to the following;
a) Less offside calls (potential late flags) for plays which may lead to a goal, but ultimately don't
b) Late flags for all potential offside offences when a goal is scored
c) The AR never having to be an arbiter of offside offences when a goal is scored (the AR won't flag anyway)
All of this massively changes the dynamic of acting as AR and effectively renders the assistant to being a touchline judge (ball in/out)
When is a goal a goal? That's the most concerning thing. Fans have to delay any celebration as every goal is checked. This kills the game imo
Yep...and VAR is just as unpredictable and inconsistent as live referee decisions are as well. At least in Australia.

The ball was played over the top, Kane rounded the keeper and was brought down. VAR checked offside then penalty, and penalty was awarded, YC to keeper.
Then correct process and decision for me.
But if the AR had flagged an offside here and it had gone to VAR for some reason (I know, play would have stopped and it wouldn't go to VAR, but work with me here), I wouldn't want VAR to overrule the offside.
 

Big Cat

RefChat Addict
#19
Yep...and VAR is just as unpredictable and inconsistent as live referee decisions are as well. At least in Australia.


Then correct process and decision for me.
But if the AR had flagged an offside here and it had gone to VAR for some reason (I know, play would have stopped and it wouldn't go to VAR, but work with me here), I wouldn't want VAR to overrule the offside.
Yup, 99 . something % accurate according to FIFA, but 99.9% more pain than gain for the rest of us...
 
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