A&H

Simulation Question

B

boulderdomb

Active Member
Think I've made a mistake at the weekend and hoping for a bit of advice -

Striker running towards ball (terrific through ball I must say) and defender has a hold on the back of his shirt - if striker gets pulled to the ground I'm giving penalty and for whatever reason the striker decides to leap forward with both arms in the air and go to ground (if he was pulled to ground, he'd have fell backwards) and imo there was no pulling from the defender, I'd say the holding of his shirt wasn't even pulling the shirt off of his body (it wasn't like he was fighting him off).

I award defending team free kick and caution striker for simulation under pretending to have been fouled, coach unhappy after game and I acknowledge the holding of the shirt but ask why he leaped forward the way he did (stereotypical dive, 9/10 for effort) which he obviously unhappy about.

Thinking back on it, am I right to question the way the striker has leaped and assume the pull has thrown him forward or correct to give simulation here?
 
The Referee Store
I'm assuming you're certain there wasn't a push in the back?

If so, good decision. It's not a foul to simply have a fistful of shirt - and it sounds like a textbook dive; striker feels that there's a grab on his shirt so goes flying. If you've been pulled, you're not going to leap.
 
YHTBT. Holding an opponent is a foul. In most cases holding an opponent's shirt would also count as holding an opponent. I must also add that holding an opponent doesn't have to be careless for it to be a foul. So there doesn't have to be a pull or a push there for you to call a foul. You just need to determine if it was a hold.

If you considered it was a hold then a penalty and ignore the dive (because there actually was a foul).
If you considered it was not a hold then your decision was correct.
 
one said:
YHTBT. Holding an opponent is a foul. In most cases holding an opponent's shirt would also count as holding an opponent. I must also add that holding an opponent doesn't have to be careless for it to be a foul. So there doesn't have to be a pull or a push there for you to call a foul. You just need to determine if it was a hold.

If you considered it was a hold then a penalty and ignore the dive (because there actually was a foul).
If you considered it was not a hold then your decision was correct.
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Not entirely accurate.....the caution is for simulation....which the LOTG defines as:

An action which creates a wrong/false impression that something has occurred when it has not.......
 
The topic of of awarding a foul and cautioning for deceiving (simulation) at the same time has been flogged to death here in a few threads. I would not debate it any further other than quoting a more complete set of relevant laws. Judge it for yourselves.

A player must be cautioned for unsporting behaviour including if a player: attempts to deceive the referee e.g. by feigning injury or pretending to have been fouled (simulation)
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Deceive
Act to mislead/trick the referee into giving an incorrect decision/disciplinary sanction which benefits the deceiver and/or their team
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Simulation
An action which creates a wrong/false impression that something has occurred when it has not (see also deceive); committed by a player to gain an unfair advantage
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It wasn't a mistake ;)
You felt there was no foul.

I note from this that there might be cases where awarding the foul and also YC for the dive might be correct in law and also aide match control;)
 
boulderdomb said:
Think I've made a mistake at the weekend and hoping for a bit of advice -

Striker running towards ball (terrific through ball I must say) and defender has a hold on the back of his shirt - if striker gets pulled to the ground I'm giving penalty and for whatever reason the striker decides to leap forward with both arms in the air and go to ground (if he was pulled to ground, he'd have fell backwards) and imo there was no pulling from the defender, I'd say the holding of his shirt wasn't even pulling the shirt off of his body (it wasn't like he was fighting him off).

I award defending team free kick and caution striker for simulation under pretending to have been fouled, coach unhappy after game and I acknowledge the holding of the shirt but ask why he leaped forward the way he did (stereotypical dive, 9/10 for effort) which he obviously unhappy about.

Thinking back on it, am I right to question the way the striker has leaped and assume the pull has thrown him forward or correct to give simulation here?
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I had a very similar incident a few weeks back and also cautioned the attacker for simulation. I'm confident I called mine right; be interesting to know what your gut feeling is
 
Could you have award the free kick against the defender for the shirt pull-foul (if you felt it was) and give the attacking team the free kick but still caution the attacker for the dive ?
 
spuddy1878 said:
Could you have award the free kick against the defender for the shirt pull-foul (if you felt it was) and give the attacking team the free kick but still caution the attacker for the dive ?
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'Football would not expect' this. 'Football would have no clue', as to what was happening :eek:
 
spuddy1878 said:
Could you have award the free kick against the defender for the shirt pull-foul (if you felt it was) and give the attacking team the free kick but still caution the attacker for the dive ?
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Not credibly. You'd be telling the defender he committed a foul, and then tell the attacker he's committed simulation. You'd never be able to explain that and you'd probably struggle to keep control of the game after that.
 
Thanks everyone.

I wouldn't say there was any impact on the striker however have acknowledged that if the defender actually pulled or obstructed him through the shirt I was giving a penalty. The 40 minute drive home had me thinking if I should have given penalty as there was a hold before the dive.
 
boulderdomb said:
Thanks everyone.

I wouldn't say there was any impact on the striker however have acknowledged that if the defender actually pulled or obstructed him through the shirt I was giving a penalty. The 40 minute drive home had me thinking if I should have given penalty as there was a hold before the dive.
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Well you said it yourself - there was no impact. The shirt may have been grabbed, but if it's not actually pulling on the defender, affecting his movement or balance, then it's not a foul Remember we ignore the trifling infringements - and a handful of shirt with zero impact on the player is about as trifling as it gets.

I once sent off a player for a 2nd yellow. Running down the line, defender reaches out, moment he puts a hand on the shoulder, goes down like he was shot. Clear dive. Had he stayed on his feet he might have won the foul - but he dived before the opposing player actually pushed or held.
 
CapnBloodbeard said:
Well you said it yourself - there was no impact. The shirt may have been grabbed, but if it's not actually pulling on the defender, affecting his movement or balance, then it's not a foul Remember we ignore the trifling infringements - and a handful of shirt with zero impact on the player is about as trifling as it gets.

I once sent off a player for a 2nd yellow. Running down the line, defender reaches out, moment he puts a hand on the shoulder, goes down like he was shot. Clear dive. Had he stayed on his feet he might have won the foul - but he dived before the opposing player actually pushed or held.
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Whilst I'm happy with the above movement suggesting simulation, how can we as referees not punish a player for grabbing the shirt of a player in motion? When the laws dictate holding as a foul, regardless of whether there's a pull or push affecting movement, surely you give the foul? Nowhere in law 12 does holding suggest that it must to impede the players movement.
 
It seems like you went with your gut feeling on this call. That means you were probably right. Normally your gut feeling is the right one.
 
Interesting idea to call both players, Ice hockey is my second sport and Refs do sometimes call a foul on the offending player and also penalise the offended player for “embellishment”
 
QuaverRef said:
Whilst I'm happy with the above movement suggesting simulation, how can we as referees not punish a player for grabbing the shirt of a player in motion? When the laws dictate holding as a foul, regardless of whether there's a pull or push affecting movement, surely you give the foul? Nowhere in law 12 does holding suggest that it must to impede the players movement.
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How is there a foul if the player isn't affected in the slightest? Don't forget, we're to ignore minor or trifling infringements.
Take the simulation out of it - are you ever going to penalise a player just for having a handful of shirt? Of course not, you're not going to blow the whistle until the opponent is actually affected in some way.
 
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