Setting out the stall

JimmyF

New Member
Level 7 Referee
#1
So, I'm now 5 games in and am starting to get a bit of continuity in the matches.

After a couple of players continually questioning decisions in my first two games, I've started introducing myself to each team individually before the games and telling them what I will and won't allow, in particular, respecting my decisions.
After doing this, the 3rd game went by pretty much without incident.
The fourth had 3 yellows and a penalty ('that's s#*t ref', 'there's more than one team ref, what colour you wearing' and a deliberate handball ala Maradona).
The fifth was also without incident.
In my local leagues it seems that if players know what isnt going to fly, they keep their mouths closed for the most and the captains in particular have been spot on in keeping their teams in order.

This sound about right in the grand scheme of things?
 

Ciley Myrus

I came in like a wrecking ball?
#2
Each to own, if you find it works for you, great
Personally have never uttered a word to any team pre match ever
Do you think last weeks or next weeks ref says, oh its ok not to respect my decision?
My take is that setting out a stall pre match only sets you up for a fall during the game when you fail to follow through on your instructions during the game
Why can I ask would you allow or not allow anything different to another referee?
Surely you are there to allow or not allow points of play as per the LOTG?
Am just curious as to what refs who brief players actually say
 

GraemeS

Well-Known Member
#5
Each to own, if you find it works for you, great
Personally have never uttered a word to any team pre match ever
Do you think last weeks or next weeks ref says, oh its ok not to respect my decision?
My take is that setting out a stall pre match only sets you up for a fall during the game when you fail to follow through on your instructions during the game
Why can I ask would you allow or not allow anything different to another referee?
Surely you are there to allow or not allow points of play as per the LOTG?
Am just curious as to what refs who brief players actually say
Ugh, not this again. You know what refs who brief players say, because we've already had this argument over and over!

I haven't got time to go though this in detail again today unfortunately - suffice to say that there's no reason to make definitive statements pre-match and even if you do, the best way around problems in applying your statements inconsistently is to not apply them inconsistently!

I've actually started doing this less this season, having realised that there actually isn't a good time to do this at Isthmian development level. And my card count this season has gone through the roof, to the extent that I'm planning to start having a pre-match chat again. Might be coincidence but I feel without the chat, you have to set your stall out in-game with the use of cards and players haven't got a chance of knowing your tolerances before 2 or 3 cards are out. Wheras if you discuss it before that match, players at least have an idea what you'll be carding for before you have to get a card out to show them.
 

Ciley Myrus

I came in like a wrecking ball?
#6
why would you be carding for something different to next weeks referee though ?

and if you mean ME as in, having seen this topic before, well, am sorry but I have not and its a new topic on here for me.

Can I ask again, what do you actually say? anyone?
 

Russell Jones

Well-Known Member
#7
why would you be carding for something different to next weeks referee though ?
Personally, I don't talk to teams prior to games in this way. When I've seen / heard other referees do it, the body language from players doesn't feel supportive of the approach and during some games I've seen referees get into serious bother with players trying to use their pre match words against them.

However, in answer to your question above, this is a simple one. Because so many of the decisions made during the game are 'in the opinion of the referee', inevitably tolerance levels will vary from official to official, especially with regard to dissent & OFFINABUS (but also with regard to things like delaying restarts, time wasting etc). So the argument runs that being clear with players ahead of time will help them (and you) by making clear what 'type' of referee you are. Like I say, personally don't buy this but others (including some of my L4 colleagues) swear by it.
 

Ciley Myrus

I came in like a wrecking ball?
#8
I hear you and understand but I don't mean to sound obtuse, but, surely no referee says "guys today I will allow jumping in front of quick free kicks and goalkeeper, you can have 14 seconds with ball in hand"
Or, today guys I will permit time wasting?

i suppose it if works it works but I cant see, or would hope not to see any referee saying "its ok to call me xxxxx but don't call me xxxxxxx or xxxxxx or xxxxx, because then if you are faced with a red card for foul abusive the guy can say, hey ref, you never said that word was not ok
 

GraemeS

Well-Known Member
#9
I hear you and understand but I don't mean to sound obtuse, but, surely no referee says "guys today I will allow jumping in front of quick free kicks and goalkeeper, you can have 14 seconds with ball in hand"
Or, today guys I will permit time wasting?

i suppose it if works it works but I cant see, or would hope not to see any referee saying "its ok to call me xxxxx but don't call me xxxxxxx or xxxxxx or xxxxx, because then if you are faced with a red card for foul abusive the guy can say, hey ref, you never said that word was not ok
And as always when this comes up, you're making a straw man argument. The examples you quote are not ITOOTR, they are facts, and should be punished every time. The extent to which you allow players to talk to you and at what point that tips over into dissent is something that varies from referee to referee.

I can tell players pre-match that I'm happy for them to talk to me, but anyone shouting at me or talking over me as I try answer questions is going to get themselves into trouble and try to make it clear that shouldn't happen. Or I can just wait for it to happen and pull a card out. I've done the latter this season and my average cards/game is over 2 higher than it was last season. That doesn't feel like an improvement to me.
 

JimmyF

New Member
Level 7 Referee
#16
When I Talked to each team, it was under a minute, I made it clear I was here to enforce the rules and then made it clear that I expect people to respect my decisions across the game, regardless of the context and outcome. I reiterated I would not tolerate any abuse in my direction and no first/second warnings would be given, the pep talk was their warning.
When the first player went in the book, the captain was on the scene immediately, went straight to his player and said the ref clearly told you before the game, now keep it shut. Each is obviously to their own, but it seems to be working for me, rightly or wrongly.
 

GraemeS

Well-Known Member
#18
Maybe I've confused myself here. You stated I would caution someone for having a loud voice? I see no reason why I would do that, given there's a clear difference between someone talking and someone angrily shouting? So can you clarify why you seem to think I'm thick enough that I can't tell the difference between those two things?
 

Ciley Myrus

I came in like a wrecking ball?
#19
When I Talked to each team, it was under a minute, I made it clear I was here to enforce the rules and then made it clear that I expect people to respect my decisions across the game, regardless of the context and outcome. I reiterated I would not tolerate any abuse in my direction and no first/second warnings would be given, the pep talk was their warning.
When the first player went in the book, the captain was on the scene immediately, went straight to his player and said the ref clearly told you before the game, now keep it shut. Each is obviously to their own, but it seems to be working for me, rightly or wrongly.

If it works for you great but if the players don't know as referee that you are there to enforce the rules then I don't know what other reason you would be there for....
 

Ciley Myrus

I came in like a wrecking ball?
#20
Maybe I've confused myself here. You stated I would caution someone for having a loud voice? I see no reason why I would do that, given there's a clear difference between someone talking and someone angrily shouting? So can you clarify why you seem to think I'm thick enough that I can't tell the difference between those two things?[/QUO

Its a referee forum, not a personality contest. I have no desire or need to examine you as an individual.