Open Age Poor decision and how to improve

[Gabriel]

Hi all, I had a really tough one today. I was on the line in a Step 7 game between 2nd and 3rd so I knew before the game it would be tough. All the big decisions were, somewhat annoyingly, in my end. In the first half, there was a nailed on pen. Ref gave it and we carried on as normal. Going into the second half, it was 2-2. Right in front of me after about 70 minutes, the most obvious foul I have ever seen was committed in the box. I had a perfect view and went to flag, before I saw the ref "cutting the grass". He was very confident on that so I followed his decision thinking I may have missed something and got all the stick for it. After the game, he said to me "my view was partially blocked and I used my instinct". That naturally absolutely infuriated me because I'd just spent 25 minutes being challenged on everything because I followed his decision, as he'd instructed me to do in the pre-match (the usual if I'm clearly not giving it don't flag sort of thing). He then said he knew he'd got it wrong based on the reaction of the players before play restarted. At that point why couldn't he just come over and see what I think? Surely sticking with a clearly wrong decision is worse than admitting you got it wrong. Is there anything I could have done differently here? Should I have just flagged anyway? I was put in a really difficult position by the fact that he'd so confidently said no (he was the only person at the game who thought it wasn't a pen). Rather typically, the other side scored the winner to make it 3-2 from an attack after the resulting goal kick, before the side who should have had that pen then missed another one that they did get (I just flagged that time because I knew we'd got the first one wrong). I was gutted after the game because it looked like I'd got it wrong. Is there anything I should do differently if this happens again?
TIA

 

[Runner Ref]

All depends on his pre-match. If his pre-match said he doesn’t want involvement from you when they’re openly refusing the penalty, not much you can do. It’s his clubs marks and observer ones on the line. If you were being observed, observer unlikely to penalise you too much if they had sat in on the pre-match (which they absolutely should be doing)

Some referees will be a tad more lenient in their pre-match and give you more wiggle room, but if they don’t, such if life. Especially at a level where comms isn’t involved.

 

[Gabriel]

That's what I'd thought. He gave the usual pre-match when it came to pens, and although there was a bit of wiggle room there wasn't enough for me to get involved when he's cut the grass and shouted no loud enough for everyone to hear. It's just annoying because I know I got a KMD wrong and it wasn't particularly my fault. As you said, such is life I guess.

 

[Runner Ref]

That's what I'd thought. He gave the usual pre-match when it came to pens, and although there was a bit of wiggle room there wasn't enough for me to get involved when he's cut the grass and shouted no loud enough for everyone to hear. It's just annoying because I know I got a KMD wrong and it wasn't particularly my fault. As you said, such is life I guess.

At the higher level where comms are a factor, you’d be potentially getting done. But at the level you’re at with no comms, you’re just following orders.

On another day a referee could cut the grass, you flag and you drop an absolute clanger that drops the referee in it. They won’t thank you then.

 

[george.g]

Ultimately there’s a teamwork element to it. Two officials having completely contrasting views on a KMD, as much as it makes sense to us based on angles etc, is incomprehensible to a lot of players.

The referee can wave that penalty away and explain what he’s seen to players and club officials. They might not like it, they might think it’s completely wrong - but they can accept his honesty. What they won’t accept is a referee overruling an assistant for whatever reason. Far greater chance of allegations of ‘cheat’, ‘arrogant’ so on so forth.

For perspective, I’ve been on the line and thought something wasn’t a penalty. I discreetly waved it away. Ref took one look at me and awarded the penalty. I thought he’d dropped a clanger - instead it was stonewall and nobody argued it, certainly not when the footage got released. I had the complete wrong angle and had he have followed me there, I would’ve cost him.

 

[Gabriel]

I can understand why he might not have given it, but considering that even the lino on the other side said it looked stonewall from that far away suggests to me the ref should at least have considered my opinion before rushing to make a decision. Never mind though - we all learned something from that decision - be it positioning or teamwork!

 

[RustyRef]

That's what I'd thought. He gave the usual pre-match when it came to pens, and although there was a bit of wiggle room there wasn't enough for me to get involved when he's cut the grass and shouted no loud enough for everyone to hear. It's just annoying because I know I got a KMD wrong and it wasn't particularly my fault. As you said, such is life I guess.

You didn't get a KMD wrong though, as you had no opportunity to make a decision on it.

Without comms a referee is very unlikely to go and discuss a potential penalty with his AR, as that would say to everyone that he wasn't sure. I would say to my assistants if they were sure I was 100% wrong on a penalty shout, and there were significant complaints about my decision, to hit the buzzer repeatedly and that would give me a chance to correct it. But that obviously depends on using buzzer flags.

 

[OldNavyRef]

Happens all the time mate.

When you aren't the referee in the middle you are at mercy to their refereeing style.

I have been teamed up several times with a referee that doesn't really want input from his NARs and that's just that.

If the referee cuts the grass on a KMD immediately. You can't come in. Otherwise all hell will break loose sadly.

You're there to assist not insist. But I would happily tell the benches and players that.

"Lads, nothing I can do, refs made that decision"

A line like that will require some explaining. But I would happily back that up.

 

[Hilly1618]

I read this and looked back in time the my experiences as a NAR in the UCL around 15 years ago (much has changed I know) but is it not a matter of knowing your place? Did you approach the referee after the game to get their thoughts? If you had perhaps you may not have felt the need to make this post? As others have said you are there to assist and not insist. I’d love to hear the process the referee went through at the time, you say it was the most obvious foul you ever saw but clearly not for the referee at the time

 

[The Gump]

I read this and looked back in time the my experiences as a NAR in the UCL around 15 years ago (much has changed I know) but is it not a matter of knowing your place? Did you approach the referee after the game to get their thoughts? If you had perhaps you may not have felt the need to make this post?

I really see no issue with posting on here. The whole point of this forum is to educate, advise and support. It’s not like @Gabriel has done anything to identify said ref or match.

 

[one]

Hi all, I had a really tough one today. I was on the line in a Step 7 game between 2nd and 3rd so I knew before the game it would be tough. All the big decisions were, somewhat annoyingly, in my end. In the first half, there was a nailed on pen. Ref gave it and we carried on as normal. Going into the second half, it was 2-2. Right in front of me after about 70 minutes, the most obvious foul I have ever seen was committed in the box. I had a perfect view and went to flag, before I saw the ref "cutting the grass". He was very confident on that so I followed his decision thinking I may have missed something and got all the stick for it. After the game, he said to me "my view was partially blocked and I used my instinct". That naturally absolutely infuriated me because I'd just spent 25 minutes being challenged on everything because I followed his decision, as he'd instructed me to do in the pre-match (the usual if I'm clearly not giving it don't flag sort of thing). He then said he knew he'd got it wrong based on the reaction of the players before play restarted. At that point why couldn't he just come over and see what I think? Surely sticking with a clearly wrong decision is worse than admitting you got it wrong. Is there anything I could have done differently here? Should I have just flagged anyway? I was put in a really difficult position by the fact that he'd so confidently said no (he was the only person at the game who thought it wasn't a pen). Rather typically, the other side scored the winner to make it 3-2 from an attack after the resulting goal kick, before the side who should have had that pen then missed another one that they did get (I just flagged that time because I knew we'd got the first one wrong). I was gutted after the game because it looked like I'd got it wrong. Is there anything I should do differently if this happens again?
TIA

There are plenty stories here when the AR has thrown the referee under the bus (most common is flagging too early on offside). The reverse can also happen and yours is a good example.

He made a bad mistake, or two. You suffered for it, and so did he, perhapse more so. Accept it and move on. Everyone makes mistakes. You will both be better referees after this experience.

 

[OldNavyRef]

A great lesson to take from it @Gabriel is, everything you see a referee you do. That you like add it to your game. Everything you don't like. Don't adopt it.

 

[Kent Ref]

Interesting read.

Ultimately the most important thing is the right decisions are made.

In this exact case the referee made the wrong decision. Referee egos sometimes get in the way.

Many years ago i lined for somebody who ended up on the FL as an assistant. He said "don't give me any penalties" in prematch.

There was an incident in the last few minutes where the keeper clearly fouled an attacker but the referee told me not to tell him. Game ended up 0-0. Ref was a good 3-/40 yards away.

After the game i asked him why no penalty and his answer - "it wasn't that sort of game". Mystifying.

 

[Big Cat]

Hi all, I had a really tough one today. I was on the line in a Step 7 game between 2nd and 3rd so I knew before the game it would be tough. All the big decisions were, somewhat annoyingly, in my end. In the first half, there was a nailed on pen. Ref gave it and we carried on as normal. Going into the second half, it was 2-2. Right in front of me after about 70 minutes, the most obvious foul I have ever seen was committed in the box. I had a perfect view and went to flag, before I saw the ref "cutting the grass". He was very confident on that so I followed his decision thinking I may have missed something and got all the stick for it. After the game, he said to me "my view was partially blocked and I used my instinct". That naturally absolutely infuriated me because I'd just spent 25 minutes being challenged on everything because I followed his decision, as he'd instructed me to do in the pre-match (the usual if I'm clearly not giving it don't flag sort of thing). He then said he knew he'd got it wrong based on the reaction of the players before play restarted. At that point why couldn't he just come over and see what I think? Surely sticking with a clearly wrong decision is worse than admitting you got it wrong. Is there anything I could have done differently here? Should I have just flagged anyway? I was put in a really difficult position by the fact that he'd so confidently said no (he was the only person at the game who thought it wasn't a pen). Rather typically, the other side scored the winner to make it 3-2 from an attack after the resulting goal kick, before the side who should have had that pen then missed another one that they did get (I just flagged that time because I knew we'd got the first one wrong). I was gutted after the game because it looked like I'd got it wrong. Is there anything I should do differently if this happens again?
TIA

I think this is a really excellent post

The dynamic between Referee and Assistants is not discussed on here as much as one might expect
There's something fundamentally wrong with the way the team works, although I can only speak from my experience of working without Comms
I've just had a look back through my games and I've been Assistant Referee on 97 occasions now, during which time I've seen quite a few clear and obvious (for want of a better term) clangers by the man in the middle. On those occasions, it's struck me as bizarre that I've had no recourse to intervene and avert a bad outcome

I think the worst experience was when I was AR to a Level 2 at an advanced stage of the Trophy at Kings Langley. Late in the game, a home player was pulled down outside the penalty area on the far side of the penalty arc. It was a clear DOGSO from my side on view but the referee was bullseye and his angle was totally inferior to mine. To make matters worse, it was 0-0 in injury time and Telford went straight up the other end to score the winner with virtually the last kick of the game. The 500 or so spectators were mostly right behind me and could see exactly what I'd seen and they were absolutely incandescent with me for not acting on what we'd all very clearly seen
Leaving the FOP was the most hostile experience I've encountered as a Match Official
I asked the Referee in the changing room afterwards whether he would have welcomed my assistance and he categorically said no
He didn't seem bothered at all, whereas the experience really didn't sit well with me

Somewhere along the line, the dynamic of how the Referee works with Assistants has evolved into a dysfunctional relationship. It seems to me that there's too much 'fear' involved. On the contrary, my pre-match attempts to redress the problem explained above to a small extent. Depending on the competency of my Assistants and how much I trust them, I give them license to extend their area of credibility much further into the FOP than all other Referees would allow, because I place emphasis on angle over distance. If my AR has a better angle than me, he/she is better placed than me for foul recognition. When seeing a foul, I ask my ARs to glance at me first to consider angle over distance when deciding whether or not to flag

This is a very difficult aspect of refereeing a football match, but my assessment is that relationship between Referee and Assistants is not right

 

[Gabriel]

I think this is a really excellent post
The dynamic between Referee and Assistants is not discussed on here as much as one might expect
There's something fundamentally wrong with the way the team works, although I can only speak from my experience of working without Comms
I've just had a look back through my games and I've been Assistant Referee on 97 occasions now, during which time I've seen quite a few clear and obvious (for want of a better term) clangers by the man in the middle. On those occasions, it has struck me as bizarre that I've had no recourse to make right a situation that is very wrong

I think the worst experience was when I was AR to a Level 2 at an advanced stage of the Trophy at Kings Langley. Late in the game, a home player was pulled down on outside the penalty area on the far side of the penalty arc. It was a clear DOGSO from my side on view but the referee was bullseye and his angle was totally inferior to mine. To make matters worse, it was 0-0 in injury time and Telford went straight up the other end to score the winner with virtually the last kick of the game. The 500 or so spectators were mostly right behind me and could see exactly what I'd seen and they were absolutely incandescent with me for not acting on what we'd all very clearly seen
Leaving the FOP was the most hostile experience I've encountered as a Match Official
I asked the Referee in the changing room afterwards whether he would have welcomed my assistance and he categorically said no
He didn't seem bothered at all, whereas the experience really didn't sit well with me

Somewhere along the line, the dynamic of how the Referee works with Assistants has evolved into a dysfunctional relationship. It seems to me that there's too much 'fear' involved. On the contrary, my pre-match attempts to redress the problem explained above to a small extent. Depending on the competency of my Assistants and how much I trust them, I give them license to extend their area of credibility much further into the FOP than all other Referees would allow, because I place emphasis on angle over distance. If my AR has a better angle than me, he/she is better placed than me for foul recognition. When seeing a foul, I ask my ARs to glance at first to consider angle over distance when deciding whether or not to flag

This is a very difficult aspect of refereeing a football match, but my assessment is that relationship between Referee and Assistants is not right

You have just summed up my thoughts perfectly. I have only refereed with NARs 3 times, but in two of those games they have bailed me out when I have missed something due to poor positioning (which I’ve worked on since!). I have never understood why so many would rather get something wrong than accept help purely because of where the foul was.

 

[JamesL]

I think this is a really excellent post

The dynamic between Referee and Assistants is not discussed on here as much as one might expect
There's something fundamentally wrong with the way the team works, although I can only speak from my experience of working without Comms
I've just had a look back through my games and I've been Assistant Referee on 97 occasions now, during which time I've seen quite a few clear and obvious (for want of a better term) clangers by the man in the middle. On those occasions, it's struck me as bizarre that I've had no recourse to intervene and avert a bad outcome

I think the worst experience was when I was AR to a Level 2 at an advanced stage of the Trophy at Kings Langley. Late in the game, a home player was pulled down outside the penalty area on the far side of the penalty arc. It was a clear DOGSO from my side on view but the referee was bullseye and his angle was totally inferior to mine. To make matters worse, it was 0-0 in injury time and Telford went straight up the other end to score the winner with virtually the last kick of the game. The 500 or so spectators were mostly right behind me and could see exactly what I'd seen and they were absolutely incandescent with me for not acting on what we'd all very clearly seen
Leaving the FOP was the most hostile experience I've encountered as a Match Official
I asked the Referee in the changing room afterwards whether he would have welcomed my assistance and he categorically said no
He didn't seem bothered at all, whereas the experience really didn't sit well with me

Somewhere along the line, the dynamic of how the Referee works with Assistants has evolved into a dysfunctional relationship. It seems to me that there's too much 'fear' involved. On the contrary, my pre-match attempts to redress the problem explained above to a small extent. Depending on the competency of my Assistants and how much I trust them, I give them license to extend their area of credibility much further into the FOP than all other Referees would allow, because I place emphasis on angle over distance. If my AR has a better angle than me, he/she is better placed than me for foul recognition. When seeing a foul, I ask my ARs to glance at me first to consider angle over distance when deciding whether or not to flag

This is a very difficult aspect of refereeing a football match, but my assessment is that relationship between Referee and Assistants is not right

I think we are hamstring by not being allowed Comms.
I reckon if we were allowed almost every level 3 referee would go out and buy a set tomorrow. For these very reasons.
Ultimately the referee leads the team.
An example where Comms are great, as a non active AR I, thought I,.had a great view of a foul. Comms to ref, foul if you want it. The 4000+ supporters agreed with me.
Ref declined my advice. And video showed he was right to. Now, if I start waving that luminous thing attached to my hand, takeaway fact that as the non active AR no way in neck would I, we are stuck with a wrong decision or a broken team.
So it's an example of why giving too much rope to an AR can be fatal for the overall match experience and where Comms can enhance the decisions making process, allowing info to be given discreetly.

 

[RustyRef]

You have just summed up my thoughts perfectly. I have only refereed with NARs 3 times, but in two of those games they have bailed me out when I have missed something due to poor positioning (which I’ve worked on since!). I have never understood why so many would rather get something wrong than accept help purely because of where the foul was.

Its a credibility thing, if an assistant gives a foul from much further away than the referee was you are going to get "how's he given that from there" comments. There's also the issue that a lot of foul / no foul decisions are subjective, and referees won't want a potentially "busy" AR getting involved in such a subjective decision.

I would use a sentence like don't come in for decisions outside of your credible zone unless I'm staring at you, I've been caught hopelessly out of position, or I'm the only idiot inside this ground that thinks have made a mistake. That last part gives the AR the possibility to bail me out if I have truly dropped a clanger, whilst removing the risk of them getting involved unnecessarily. And it did bail me out on a couple of occasions, the best being when I gave a handball penalty in an FA Cup game. I knew immediately something was wrong from the reaction of both sets of players, and the active AR was buzzing away like mad. Went to talk to him and he was 100% certain that it had hit an attacking player's arm, so it let me scrap the penalty and give a defensive free kick. Didn't get too many complaints either because I had made such as obvious mistake.

 

[Big Cat]

You have just summed up my thoughts perfectly. I have only refereed with NARs 3 times, but in two of those games they have bailed me out when I have missed something due to poor positioning (which I’ve worked on since!). I have never understood why so many would rather get something wrong than accept help purely because of where the foul was.

My most recent game as Assistant, there was a clear reckless foul in the middle of the pitch. The Referee was a lot closer than me and had a reasonable angle. Somehow, he gave the free kick the wrong way and failed to identify the reckless play. The Technical Areas could see exactly what I'd seen. A clear and obvious mistake, the likes of which I guess we've all made at one point or another. Somewhat belatedly, I buzzed the Ref and advised him accordingly but he declined my advice. I'm certain that had the Ref corrected his mistake, respect for him would've been restored, but he went on to have a poor game, possibly distracted by my unwanted assistance.

My pre-match is that I want help if and when I'm the only person in the stadium to have seen something that is wrong. The Ref agreed with me afterwards, that his pre-match should include explicit instruction to Assistants not to intervene on such occasions as he believes in the dynamic the way it is over and above believing in reaching the right outcome. I emphasize that I don't believe too much in seniority and value the right outcome very highly and I'm willing to deviate from what's generally expected in terms of how the team operates

However, it's frequent (at my level) that I don't trust both ARs enough to include any of this in my pre-match. If I think there's a good chance they are both reasonably competent, I'm keen to loosen the rules of engagement

 

[Gabriel]

Its a credibility thing, if an assistant gives a foul from much further away than the referee was you are going to get "how's he given that from there" comments. There's also the issue that a lot of foul / no foul decisions are subjective, and referees won't want a potentially "busy" AR getting involved in such a subjective decision

I appreciate that and it is definitely the case that this is how it should be done usually. In this case however, I had a much better angle but he made the decision and then I had people in my face with the “why aren’t you getting involved comments”. That is why I was quite frustrated because I did make it clear that I thought it was a foul using a discreet signal (agreed pre match) after he’d obviously said no meaning I couldn’t really flag, and he decided not to listen and then said he used instinct. Credibility is important, but I believe in this case our credibility would have improved if he had let me get involved. That being said, if a referee makes a decision and sticks with it, the only option an assistant has is to go along with it.

 

[Runner Ref]

I think we are hamstring by not being allowed Comms.
I reckon if we were allowed almost every level 3 referee would go out and buy a set tomorrow. For these very reasons.
Ultimately the referee leads the team.
An example where Comms are great, as a non active AR I, thought I,.had a great view of a foul. Comms to ref, foul if you want it. The 4000+ supporters agreed with me.
Ref declined my advice. And video showed he was right to. Now, if I start waving that luminous thing attached to my hand, takeaway fact that as the non active AR no way in neck would I, we are stuck with a wrong decision or a broken team.
So it's an example of why giving too much rope to an AR can be fatal for the overall match experience and where Comms can enhance the decisions making process, allowing info to be given discreetly.

To a point I agree that being able to have comms at L3 would be nice, but I also think it would be a hindrance as well. Comms, much like lining, is a skill in its own right. And something I don’t think it’s taught as much as it should be.

I remember getting on National League line and using comms for only 3rd or 4th time in my life and I didn’t really know what I was doing. There were some people who would give you a running commentary and others who gave dead silence.

In regards to the OP, not too many people are going to forgive an AR getting involved when the referee has waved it away. The term who benefit probably will, but everyone else, referee included, won’t.