RefSix

Passback or not?

RobOda

RefChat Addict
#1
Excuse the informal terminology:

Had a situation today, was told post-match it was a bit of '50-50' matter of interpretation decision:


Ball is up in the air in the penalty area. Defender brings it down on his foot - rather beautiful bit of skill. Keeper rushes out, defender leaves it, keeper picks it up.

Is that enough for a deliberate kick back to the keeper or no?
 

Ciley Myrus

RefChat Addict
#2
Keeper taking a big risk and making the ref make a decision, am more yes than no on this one, basing my decision on the "defender leaves it" part, which in my head paints a more deliberate act than something more innocuous.

its one of those, could go either way ones?
 

QuaverRef

I used to be indecisive but now i'm not so sure
#5
YHTBT but sounds like an indirect free kick to me. I posted a thread on here a few months back where a defender has trapped the ball with his foot on top, then the keeper comes and picks it up
 

QuaverRef

I used to be indecisive but now i'm not so sure
#8
Why on earth would you penalise this? Play on....
If you deliberately leave it for the keeper as described above after controlling the ball, why wouldn’t that be a pass back? If I pass the ball to my centre back, he controls it and then ‘leaves it’ for the keeper to pick up, would that be any different?

For me, if the player controls it with his foot then leaves it knowing the keeper is going to pick up, that’s deliberately kicking the ball to the keeper as The rule doesn’t specify movement of the ball
 
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RobOda

RefChat Addict
#9
Not kicked to the GK
Curiously, the glossary says otherwise. Newly created for this season:

* Kicked - "The ball is kicked when a player makes contact with the foot and/or the ankle" (But I do agree it isn't a kick in the conventional sense of the word...)

basing my decision on the "defender leaves it" part, which in my head paints a more deliberate act than something more innocuous.
That was my line of thinking at the time.

YHTBT but sounds like an indirect free kick to me. I posted a thread on here a few months back where a defender has trapped the ball with his foot on top, then the keeper comes and picks it up
Pretty much that then, but instead of trapping the ball he just brings it down/kills it for the keeper to pick up. - The decision to step away so the keeper could pick it up is what influenced me to penalise it.

I knew you would say that! ;)
 

one

RefChat Addict
#10
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It's definitely a "deliberate kick". The "to the goalkeeper" part is up for interpretation though. Similar scenarios have been discussed here a few times. At grassroots, they could get the benefit of doubt (if I am not sure) and one warning from me if I see it, . At pro or semi pro no benefit of doubt, IFK, they would/should know better, especially the keeper.

YHTBT but sounds like an indirect free kick to me. I posted a thread on here a few months back where a defender has trapped the ball with his foot on top, then the keeper comes and picks it up
You have to watch out for the crafty players who pretend they are about to play it themselves but the keeper still picks it up (planned ruse). So even if they don't step away, it could still be a back pass.
 

Ciley Myrus

RefChat Addict
#11
Folk need to bear in mind that the kicked part simply means, use of foot here and of course it does not have to be the conventional pass, controlling it with foot for gk to lift, is considered "a pass back"
Also for new refs, bear in mind the direction of the pass does not matter either, think of it as, last played by a team mates foot.
 

Big Cat

RefChat Addict
#12
Curiously, the glossary says otherwise. Newly created for this season:

* Kicked - "The ball is kicked when a player makes contact with the foot and/or the ankle" (But I do agree it isn't a kick in the conventional sense of the word...)



That was my line of thinking at the time.



Pretty much that then, but instead of trapping the ball he just brings it down/kills it for the keeper to pick up. - The decision to step away so the keeper could pick it up is what influenced me to penalise it.



I knew you would say that! ;)
I actually awarded an IDFK for exactly the same thing earlier in the season. I'm still not convinced what the correct decision is
 
#14
I actually awarded an IDFK for exactly the same thing earlier in the season. I'm still not convinced what the correct decision is
We've discussed this several times before and I'm sticking to what I've said on this previously. This is one of those few things in the game (handling being the primary example) where the referee still has to decide if something was done deliberately. It's basically asking you to be a mind-reader, which of course is tricky but if I can paraphrase something originally used by the IFAB for a different purpose (circumvention), then as far as I'm concerned, "the referee must be convinced that this was the player’s motive."

So if you're convinced the player has done this knowingly and intentionally, so that the keeper can pick up the ball, it's an offence. If you're not convinced that was the player's motive, don't give it. I would also say that I'd usually give them the benefit of the doubt (and a warning) on the first occurrence - unless they somehow make it blatantly obvious it's what they're doing. But if it is blindingly obvious or if they start to repeat the tactic (especially after being warned) you should penalise it.
 
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RobOda

RefChat Addict
#15
FWIW: I got my assessment report back today:

The assessor was happy with my reasoning, but recommended giving the benefit of the doubt in future to avoid potential dissent arising from the decision.
 

Big Cat

RefChat Addict
#17
This ^ ^ ^

It's quite clear.

In the OP's example where the defender brings the ball down with his foot and then leaves it because his goalkeeper has rushed out to pick it up? For me, anybody that sees that as deliberately kicking the ball to their goalkeeper needs to have a stern word with themselves.

Play on.
Well I did just that. Six months on, I'm still struggling to get to sleep at night 😴
 

Kes

I'll Decide ...
#19
The defender hasn't deliberately kicked to the ball to his goalkeeper. End of.

If we start looking at other/similar scenarios and trying to see if we can slot them into a pigeon-hole they're not meant to be in, then we're not doing our job.
 

one

RefChat Addict
#20
The defender hasn't deliberately kicked to the ball to his goalkeeper. End of.

If we start looking at other/similar scenarios and trying to see if we can slot them into a pigeon-hole they're not meant to be in, then we're not doing our job.
Are you saying if the defender brings the ball down to the ground with the purpose of goalkeeper to pick it up you would not penalise?
 
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