Ref4Me

Palace V Liverpool

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MattTheRef

Active Member
Level 5 Referee
Jota loses the ball and steps across into the keeper.
Slightly shocked it took so long and was then given tbh!
 

MattTheRef

Active Member
Level 5 Referee
Question on the second goal as well.
Firmino clearly offside, jumps (misses) for the ball. Is that not deemed active that he tries to play it?
 

cwyeary

RefChat Addict
Yeah. I'm at a loss. Look at Jota's body language. He's given up on the ball and then just steps into the GK. Friend needs the courage to look at that and say "no way".
 

JamesL

RefChat Addict
Level 4 Referee
Question on the second goal as well.
Firmino clearly offside, jumps (misses) for the ball. Is that not deemed active that he tries to play it?
It has to impact on the ability of a defender to play the ball so it's not an instant that's offside.
 

cwyeary

RefChat Addict
Surely this is 1) making an obvious action that impacts the ability of an opponent to play the ball AND 2) challenging an opponent for the ball.

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RustyRef

Administrator
Staff member
I've backed VAR in the past but that was just a complete joke, it just isn't a penalty. Jota overruns the ball and then changes direction to clatter into the keeper, who has done absolutely nothing wrong. How two vastly experienced SG1 referees can watch that multiple times and come to the conclusion of penalty is absolutely baffling. Although Kevin Friend may have some excuse as it certainly does appear that they have been told they can't override the VAR recommendation.

There have been so many other far more obvious penalties that VAR hasn't got involved in, and the bar just keeps getting moved. If VAR needs to look at a potential penalty for so long, and then the referee also needs to look for a long time, it clearly can't have been a clear and obvious error. The very definition of that word is "easily perceived or understood; clear, self-evident, or apparent". Yet again though there will be complete radio silence from PGMOL management and the frustration with VAR will continue to grow.

Personally I don't think there is an offside in the goal. Yes, he attempts to head it but I don't see that his action impacted on an opponent as the defender, Mitchell, was getting nowhere near it.
 

cwyeary

RefChat Addict
Personally I don't think there is an offside in the goal. Yes, he attempts to head it but I don't see that his action impacted on an opponent as the defender, Mitchell, was getting nowhere near it.

I disagree here. The defender had to decide to pressure and move towards Firmino because he was jumping for it. If he didn't move towards Firmino, he's well positioned to head the ball clear.
 

Joshref

Well-Known Member
Level 7 Referee

For anyone that hasn’t seen it. For me, cannot believe that’s been given, really interested as to what the thought process was behind it.
 

RustyRef

Administrator
Staff member
I disagree here. The defender had to decide to pressure and move towards Firmino because he was jumping for it. If he didn't move towards Firmino, he's well positioned to head the ball clear.
Not really, as Mitchell had already moved towards Firminho well before he jumped, as a full back you are taught to "tuck in" as better to leave your man out wide than leave someone free in front of goal. Even if Firminho hadn't jumped Mitchell would still have been in that position, Oxlade-Chamberlain would still have been free, so it is difficult to say that his attempt to play the ball affected the outcome in any way.
 

David F

New Member
Any chance Pawson was influenced by his VAR mistake with Ederson on Fraser in the Newcastle-Man City game?

Would usually avoid that kind of lazy analysis, but there must’ve been a number of people telling him how awful that decision was, and this was an incident in the same category but way down the other end of the spectrum.
 

RustyRef

Administrator
Staff member
So on the same day, just hours later, we have Oliver Skipp rugby tackle Cesar Azpilicueta in the penalty area at a set piece, as clear a penalty as you are ever going to see. Can't blame the referee for missing it but where is VAR, there wasn't even any indication that it was checked. This is why people are frustrated with England's VAR implentation, something that clearly isn't a penalty reviewed and incorrectly given, something that was absolutely a very clear and obvious error not even checked. Games are being decided on complete randomness and it has to get sorted out, other countries can manage it well, it isn't a technology issue, it is a people issue and by that I don't necessarily mean the match officials themselves.
 

Mr Dean

Well-Known Member
So on the same day, just hours later, we have Oliver Skipp rugby tackle Cesar Azpilicueta in the penalty area at a set piece, as clear a penalty as you are ever going to see. Can't blame the referee for missing it but where is VAR, there wasn't even any indication that it was checked. This is why people are frustrated with England's VAR implentation, something that clearly isn't a penalty reviewed and incorrectly given, something that was absolutely a very clear and obvious error not even checked. Games are being decided on complete randomness and it has to get sorted out, other countries can manage it well, it isn't a technology issue, it is a people issue and by that I don't necessarily mean the match officials themselves.
Are you sure other countries manage VAR well? I must admit I don't routinely watch other leagues but I have seen examples of outrageous VAR decisions in multiple other countries. It very much seems like the system itself is the problem rather than the people; when designing systems to be used by people, designers must account for humans' imperfect nature. The current VAR system requires the people who operate it to be wholly consistent with almost robot-like perfection.
 

one

RefChat Addict
Level 7 Referee
Penalty?
Not for me, Jota makes a total hash of the chance and moves into the keeper as opposed to keeper committing the foul.
Really bad VAR moment imo.
Totally agree. Posted it in another thread about the same time. Any idea who the VAR was.


Although Kevin Friend may have some excuse as it certainly does appear that they have been told they can't override the VAR recommendation.
This is against IFAB directives but makes sense. Friend didn't look happy giving it.
 

RustyRef

Administrator
Staff member
Are you sure other countries manage VAR well? I must admit I don't routinely watch other leagues but I have seen examples of outrageous VAR decisions in multiple other countries. It very much seems like the system itself is the problem rather than the people; when designing systems to be used by people, designers must account for humans' imperfect nature. The current VAR system requires the people who operate it to be wholly consistent with almost robot-like perfection.

It worked pretty much perfectly in the Euros, there was lots of praise for its low key intervention. And it seems to court much less controvery in Italy and Spain than it does in England. The problem here is sometimes they, rightly, don't get involved because it is subjective, then, like today, they get involved with something that they have absolutely no business getting involved with. There is zero consistency.
 

cwyeary

RefChat Addict
It worked pretty much perfectly in the Euros, there was lots of praise for its low key intervention. And it seems to court much less controvery in Italy and Spain than it does in England. The problem here is sometimes they, rightly, don't get involved because it is subjective, then, like today, they get involved with something that they have absolutely no business getting involved with. There is zero consistency.

You can find examples in every league of VAR issues. You're always going to have situations that some people think are clear and others don't. But England has (IMO) a lower level of consistency and application of protocol.

One of the strengths that MLS has and it's much to the credit of people like Howard Webb and Mark Geiger is they've applied accurate and consistent language to the VAR process. It's the same process every time. If the ref is Mike and the VAR is Tom it's always "Mike, it's Tom. Delay delay delay". "Mike, it's Tom, I'm recommending a review for a red card for serious foul play". Etc. The language is to the precision like an air traffic control would have. Only the VAR is allowed to say the words check complete. Not the ref. Not the AR. Not the AVAR. Not the operator. Everything is done to have a consistent process and limit the risk of miscommunication.

PGMOL would be making a huge improvement by paying Webb a nice chunk of money to come run this organization. He would fix VAR in England and I think he would develop better referees. I've sat in rooms with him. I've talk with guys of which Howard is their boss. He is a leader, a great communicator, and a great manager. Oh, and he just happens to have been a decent ref too. :)
 

socal lurker

RefChat Addict
So on the same day, just hours later, we have Oliver Skipp rugby tackle Cesar Azpilicueta in the penalty area at a set piece, as clear a penalty as you are ever going to see. Can't blame the referee for missing it but where is VAR, there wasn't even any indication that it was checked. This is why people are frustrated with England's VAR implentation, something that clearly isn't a penalty reviewed and incorrectly given, something that was absolutely a very clear and obvious error not even checked. Games are being decided on complete randomness and it has to get sorted out, other countries can manage it well, it isn't a technology issue, it is a people issue and by that I don't necessarily mean the match officials themselves.
We’ll, every possible PK is checked. People just don’t know it is happening unless the a restart has to be delayed for the check to be completed. (Or, if that isn’t true, the PL implementation of VAR is even worse and further afield from what it is supposed to be than we’re aware of.)

I agree with @cwyeary that MLS has done a better job than most of implementing VAR. The transparency is phenomena. That doesn’t mean the VAR and R get every call right, but PRO admits when a mistake is made rather than coming up with a convoluted reason as to why it was correct.
 

cwyeary

RefChat Addict
The transparency is phenomena. That doesn’t mean the VAR and R get every call right, but PRO admits when a mistake is made rather than coming up with a convoluted reason as to why it was correct.

I'd say PRO is good but not phenomenal. We've had examples on our other forum where they've avoided a couple of big topics. But their weekly (mostly) videos and the fact they put out info on every OFR saying if it was correct or not is pretty good.
 
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