A&H

offside

wenger

New Member
Level 6 Referee
1.last defen in clear possession of ball, attacker comes from behind him,( goalside so 'offside position') tackles him & goes on to score.
is att onside because defen was last to play the ball, i.e not a pass from att player?
 
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1.last defen in clear possession of ball, attacker comes from behind him,( goalside so 'offside position') tackles him & goes on to score.
is att onside because defen was last to play the ball, i.e not a pass from att player?
It depends on the build up to the part of the game you describe. If an attacker played the ball while his team-mate was in an offside position, and the offside player challenges for the ball or affects the defender's ability to do so or does any of the other things listed in Law 11, the free kick is awarded as the attacker has become active.
The Practical Guidelines in the IFAB Laws of the Game all may help.
 
Probably not OS as I picture what you wrote, but need a bit more information. Specifically, how long was the defender in clear possession?

The Laws can seem a bit mushy on this point, and show a bit of a difference between how OS "resets" for interference with play and interference with an opponent.

If the defender with the ball has clearly possessed the ball for a period of time, there are no offside considerations any more, as the ball was not last touched or played by a teammate.

But if the defender just obtained possession of the ball and the player challenging had been in offside position when a teammate touched or played the ball just before the defender obtained the ball, then the immediate challenge would be interfering with an opponent by challenging an opponent for possession of the ball.

Exactly where the line is drawn is not a bright line, but in broad brush the defender should have full possession and an opportunity, as opposed to an immediate challenge.
 
I don't know if others are seeing the same but for me, offside is replacing handball as the new offside (!) - ie the players appear to have given up trying to understand handball and have gone back to just appealing for everything as before but they now go mad about offsides again.

Two recent examples:
A defender intercepted a ball through to an opponent who was well offside, trapped the ball and then held on to it for several seconds while he decided where to play it. The offside attacker then jogged back and tackled him and ran through to score. The player had held on to the ball for so long I couldn't disallow the goal because he'd had it under full control while his team mates watched. Not one of them thought to tell him "man on!", I think because they assumed because the player was offside. It felt like 5 seconds, but was maybe slightly less. He certainly had the ball under full control for longer than any defender has a right to in that area.

This Sunday I had a top two game under control at 1 - 1 with two minutes to go. I had sent off an away player (I always send him off - some time he'll work it out and decide he's going to shut up and not make it so easy for me. This was his first game back from a previous suspension, so it's not just me) when I gave a free kick just outside the home PA for a trip. There were two away players in offside positions when the ball was played in, but both stayed out of it. A player ran through and collected the ball right on the 6 yard line before putting it past the keeper to win the game. When the ball was played he was onside but by the time he took the ball he was almost 10 yards offside. I was hoping for one of two things to happen - Either the keeper to save the ball and one of the offside players to put the rebound away or else a defender to try to run through with the attacker and be stopped by one of the two other opponents. Either of these would have allowed me to judge one of them as active, and the game really deserved to be a draw.

Neither of these happened - The defenders stood there with their hands up appealing with no one making any attempt to track back and the keeper was nowhere near the ball, so again I had no reason to disallow it. Cue a testy last couple of minutes with a home player being sent off for comments made, when 5 minutes before both teams were happy with the draw. Players were actually saying to me that they thought I was having a great game and they wished they had me more often. Two minutes later I'm being told I'm f***ing s**t and I hope we never see you again!

The away team said after the game that they thought the goal scorer was offside - no way, he was played onside by three defenders when the ball was played, but they say these things to get under the skin of the other team, which certainly worked.
 
The defenders stood there with their hands up appealing with no one making any attempt to track back and the keeper was nowhere near the ball,

As many games as I have played, reffed, and watched, this always amazes me--defenders giving up the chance to defend to plead for a call.
 
1.last defen in clear possession of ball, attacker comes from behind him,( goalside so 'offside position') tackles him & goes on to score.
is att onside because defen was last to play the ball, i.e not a pass from att player?
We're making a few assumptions on this play and that is what "social lurker" is referring to.

Situation 1: Ball came to 2nd last defender from defending team. No offside as play didn't originate from attacking team.
Situation 2: Ball came to 2nd last defender from attacking team.
a: If 2nd last defender purposefully played ball (i.e., not a deflection), then not offside
b: If attacker in offside position challenged the 2nd last defender for ball prior to 2nd last defender purposefully playing ball, then that would be offside for interfering w/ defending player while in offside position. But once 2nd last defender purposefully plays ball, the offside position is immaterial at that point.
 
b: If attacker in offside position challenged the 2nd last defender for ball prior to 2nd last defender purposefully playing ball, then that would be offside for interfering w/ defending player while in offside position. But once 2nd last defender purposefully plays ball, the offside position is immaterial at that point.
This is where I think it gets mushy. The defender deliberately playing the ball clearly removes any further possible OS for interfering with play. Less clear is precisely how the defensive play affects OS for interfering with an opponent by challenging the opponent for the ball (which is the Q in the OP). As best I can tell, the guidance is that immediately challenging the opponent for the ball upon his deliberate play can still be considered sufficient to support an OS offense. But I have not found anything that conclusively addresses this or how long "immediately" should last.
 
This is where I think it gets mushy. The defender deliberately playing the ball clearly removes any further possible OS for interfering with play. Less clear is precisely how the defensive play affects OS for interfering with an opponent by challenging the opponent for the ball (which is the Q in the OP). As best I can tell, the guidance is that immediately challenging the opponent for the ball upon his deliberate play can still be considered sufficient to support an OS offense. But I have not found anything that conclusively addresses this or how long "immediately" should last.
My take is that once the defender plays the ball, it takes out interference with play and player. If the attacker is rushing so close to the defender that the attacker is more or less "immediate" with deliberate play by defender, then he/she is interfering with player. Which is what what I believe you (social lurker) said with "But if the defender just obtained possession of the ball and the player challenging had been in offside position when a teammate touched or played the ball just before the defender obtained the ball, then the immediate challenge would be interfering with an opponent by challenging an opponent for possession of the ball."
 
My rule of thumb is if the defender is challenged for the second touch, or before the second touch, or ball is played by attacker before the second touch then I call offside. That is given the defender had the opportunity to play a decent fist touch and it was played away from the attacker.

A couple examples: these are is onside



This is offside

 
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My rule of thumb is if the defender is challenged for the second touch, or before the second touch, or ball is played by attacker before the second touch then I call offside. That is given the defender had the opportunity to play a decent fist touch and it was played away from the attacker.

A couple examples: these are is onside



This is offside



??? In all 4 examples offside IS given?
 
??? In all 4 examples offside IS given?
First 3 are wrongly given.
- The defender deliberately plays the ball
- The attacker is not challenging him for the ball at the time he plays it
- The attacker does gains the ball from a deliberate play that is not played away from him.
 
First 3 are wrongly given.
- The defender deliberately plays the ball
- The attacker is not challenging him for the ball at the time he plays it
- The attacker does gains the ball from a deliberate play that is not played away from him.
I'm not necessarily saying you're wrong, but just for clarity - is that your opinion or is that specifically why the clips have been grouped in that way?
 
I'm not necessarily saying you're wrong, but just for clarity - is that your opinion or is that specifically why the clips have been grouped in that way?

Yes I was wondering that as well - not casting aspersions on One's knowledge, just would be good to know if they are 'officially' wrong!
 
I'm not necessarily saying you're wrong, but just for clarity - is that your opinion or is that specifically why the clips have been grouped in that way?
The videos are not from an official website. That is of course my opinion but also of the poster of the videos.
 
First one is doubly onside - difficult to be sure but looks on when the ball is kicked to me and as you say no where near defender when defender plays the ball.

2nd one yes I agree - onside

3rd one - You could argue that the movement of the attacker towards the defender/ball is a challnge and/or impacts the defender? but not one to take a strong position on either way.

What I did notice as well - not a peep of disagreement from the attacking sides - for once players' ignorance of the laws helps the officials out here!
 
First one is doubly onside - difficult to be sure but looks on when the ball is kicked to me and as you say no where near defender when defender plays the ball.

2nd one yes I agree - onside

3rd one - You could argue that the movement of the attacker towards the defender/ball is a challnge and/or impacts the defender? but not one to take a strong position on either way.

What I did notice as well - not a peep of disagreement from the attacking sides - for once players' ignorance of the laws helps the officials out here!
I thought I was going to have a debate on my hand. I don't see anything to disagree with.

On the reaction, it's the same with handball. I have seen referees calling handballs that are not deliberate but get no disagreement form the offender or his team. It's rare but players' ignora ce of laws can work for us.
 
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