A&H

Offside rule and 'deliberately playing the ball'

Ref2018

New Member
Hi all,

I'm looking for a bit of clarity regarding offside and the 'deliberately played' aspect of it.

Is it offside if a player has his leg outstretched in attempting to narrow an angle and the ball hits his leg and rebounds to an offside opponent. Does that count as a deflection or deliberately played?

Is a tackle always considered deliberately playing the ball when it comes to offsides? I don't really see how it can't be but just making sure.

The law also states a player isn't offside when receiving a ball that is deliberately played unless it was a 'deliberate save by an opponent'. Does that just mean in a scenario where an outfield player is the last man and is forced into making a save with his foot/body, and an attacker in an offside position scores a follow-up, it's considered offside?
 
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Q1. You have to be there but usually that is considered a deliberate play. Attempting to 'block' the ball is the same as attempting (implies deliberate) to play the ball.

Q2. Yes if the ball is touched. That's what the tack souls be for, to play the ball.

Q3. Yes, bar the words 'last man's. Has nothing to do with being last man.
 
1. I think the general criteria is whether it was a controlled action by the defender or a reflexive reaction. If the player has had time to move toward the moving ball, clearly a play. I think it is less clear if it at/near the point of the pass where the defender is just getting in the way and the ball plays the defender.

2. Yes, but be careful--often on a tackle the ball may be played by the defender and then touch the attacker--any ball that touches the attacker is a new OS opportunity.

3. Simply put, any player can make a save. The criteria in the Laws is that the ball was going to go in the goal or come close to going into the goal. Whether certain plays are saves can be difficult to tell.
 
Is it offside if a player has his leg outstretched in attempting to narrow an angle and the ball hits his leg and rebounds to an offside opponent. Does that count as a deflection or deliberately played?

While this is an overly simplistic way to look at it, think of a spectrum where one end is:
Defender is just in front of the attacker and reflexively sticks his leg out to block,

and the other end of the spectrum is:
Defender approaches a slowly rolling ball and completely shanks it.

The closer you are to the first situation, the more it's a deflection and not a deliberate play. Therefore, offside doesn't reset. The closer you are to the second situation, the more it's a deliberate play and offside is reset.

Obviously, there is an area that is very gray and the referee's judgment. The times I've had to make this determination, it's been pretty clear in my mind what's a deflection vs. a deliberate play. If I was ever in "two minds", I'd probably give the benefit of the doubt to the attacking team just as I would do when ruling on other offside factors like offside position or whether the player is gaining an advantage.

In the situation described in the quote, I'd probably side more with a deflection/reflexive action. But this is definitely an event where you'll have to see it for yourself.
 
Defender is just in front of the attacker and reflexively sticks his leg out to block,

The closer you are to the first situation, the more it's a deflection and not a deliberate play.
Disagree with this. If the defender is attempting to block the ball (even if it is a reflex) I would still call it deliberate play no matter how fast or close the ball is coming from. At top level much of what players do is reflex but trained (like a reflex save by a keeper). Also note worthy is often defenders run into the path of the ball/opponent before doing this.

The other end of the spectrum for me is if the ball is kicked from close distance and at speed to where the defender already is. And the defender turns to protect himself. Nonetheless the ball 'deflects' off the defender's foot.
 
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If the defender is attempting to block the ball (even if it is a reflex) I would still call it deliberate play no matter how fast or close the ball is coming from.
Sorry, but I have to disagree with you there. By definition, a reflex is an involuntary response and if something is involuntary that means it's not deliberate.

So if you truly believe the action by the defender that caused them to make contact with the ball was a completely and purely involuntary response (i.e. a reflex) then it can't be a deliberate play.

If however, you think it less of a reflex and more of an action undertaken with forethought and intent, then it is a deliberate play.

But in the end, these things are usually very much a referee's judgement call and can easily go either way.
 
Sorry, but I have to disagree with you there. By definition, a reflex is an involuntary response and if something is involuntary that means it's not deliberate.

So if you truly believe the action by the defender that caused them to make contact with the ball was a completely and purely involuntary response (i.e. a reflex) then it can't be a deliberate play.

If however, you think it less of a reflex and more of an action undertaken with forethought and intent, then it is a deliberate play.

But in the end, these things are usually very much a referee's judgement call and can easily go either way.
It comes down to definition of reflex doesn't it? Another definition calls it an action by a conscious thought . I would look at it the same way used when a keeper makes a "reflex" save. Counting it voluntary/concious or not, I would count it a deliberate save, done after years of training so they can do it without thinking about it.

Apply the same concept to a defender (say ex keeper but not on this game) on the line sticking a hand out by reflex to stop a ball going in the net. Deliberate right?
 
Well yes, it does come down to how you define it. I haven't seen any dictionary definition that calls it a conscious action - pretty much every one I've looked at, calls it an unconscious action (or an involuntary response).

The Oxford English dictionary gives the following:
an action that is performed without conscious thought as a response to a stimulus.

Can you point me towards the dictionary that defines it as a conscious action?

Scientifically speaking, a reflex is made possible by neural pathways called reflex arcs which can act on an impulse before that impulse reaches the brain. So if what we're seeing is truly a reflex, the person has acted without their brain even being involved at all. If that's the case, I don't see how it can be seen as deliberate.
 
Well yes, it does come down to how you define it. I haven't seen any dictionary definition that calls it a conscious action - pretty much every one I've looked at, calls it an unconscious action (or an involuntary response).

The Oxford English dictionary gives the following:


Can you point me towards the dictionary that defines it as a conscious action?

Scientifically speaking, a reflex is made possible by neural pathways called reflex arcs which can act on an impulse before that impulse reaches the brain. So if what we're seeing is truly a reflex, the person has acted without their brain even being involved at all. If that's the case, I don't see how it can be seen as deliberate.
Yeap meant to say without conscious. The rest of the post is the same though. Deliberate-ness like a keeper's reflex save does not have to have conscious thought behind it. See my example of using a hand instead of a foot.
 
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