A&H

Open Age Offside goal in a final

D

Denis McCarthy

Observer
I was Assistant Referee on a Cup Final recently. The play has developed down the other end of the pitch. Green were one down and pushing forward. They played the ball through to the striker who was in an offside position. He made no attempt to go for it but the Assistant raised his flag. The referee continued with play and his team mate got the ball. The keeper came out and he then squared it to the player originally offside who banged it in the onion bag. Green celebrate. The referee then disallowed the goal saying the original player interfered with play, then after the game said he gained an advantage. Prior to the game the referee mentioned he will play on if he feels the flag was raised incorrectly, so this caused a little chaos. Green lost the game.


Thoughts?
 
The Referee Store
1) If he makes no play on the ball (even swinging and missing is a play by UEFA's guidelines) and the ball does not touch him, he's not offside on the initial play. If he moves to and makes an attempt at that ball, he's now interfering. You (seemed to) stated that he didn't move to it at all, so this doesn't appear to apply.

2) Once his team-mate gets the ball, the offside position "snapshot" must be retaken. If the ball moves ahead of the striker before it is passed to him ("squared"), then the striker is no longer in an offside position.

3) You cannot gain an advantage from a PRIOR offside position if there is a new sequence of play for the purposes of determining offside. The new sequence here began when his (previously onside) team-mate received the ball and played it to the striker.

Edit: Added back the missing words into #1 ("is a play")
 
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In other words, the goal should not have been disallowed. It is a bit of a grey area and often misunderstood.

However, is it possible the referee "took one for the team" here and went with the lino, on the basis that it was an easier sell and it spared the lino a load of abuse? As a ref, if you have a neutral assistant waving his flag, sometimes the decision is taken to go with it in the spirit of teamwork.
 
One point I didn't make was the referee said play on when the assistant raised his flag, then only consulted after the goal was scored. To me it should have been allowed and there were two errors.
1. The assistant should not have raised his flag, but once he did the ref should have blown.
2. Once he didn't blow play should have continued and the goal allowed.

Asked for my opinion afterwards I mentioned the above and the response was, 'don't matter now anyway does it?
 
Denis McCarthy said:
One point I didn't make was the referee said play on when the assistant raised his flag, then only consulted after the goal was scored. To me it should have been allowed and there were two errors.
1. The assistant should not have raised his flag, but once he did the ref should have blown.
2. Once he didn't blow play should have continued and the goal allowed.

Asked for my opinion afterwards I mentioned the above and the response was, 'don't matter now anyway does it?
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I disagree with (1). If the assistant raises their flag the referee should not automatically stop play. The flag is an indication to the referee that the assistant feels an offside offence has been committed. The referee makes the final call. In these 'two player' situations there are occasions when it is obvious an AR has made an error... other times not so, of course.

If play continues leading to a KMI (such as a goal) then given the match temperature increase, it would be prudent to consult with the AR. Get all the facts. Then the referee can sell the goal as appropriate.

Key word: Teamwork.
 
AlexF said:
1) If he makes no play on the ball (even swinging and missing by UEFA's guidelines) and the ball does not touch him, he's not offside on the initial play. If he moves to and makes an attempt at that ball, he's now interfering. You (seemed to) stated that he didn't move to it at all, so this doesn't appear to apply.

2) Once his team-mate gets the ball, the offside position "snapshot" must be retaken. If the ball moves ahead of the striker before it is passed to him ("squared"), then the striker is no longer in an offside position.

3) You cannot gain an advantage from a PRIOR offside position if there is a new sequence of play for the purposes of determining offside. The new sequence here began when his (previously onside) team-mate received the ball and played it to the striker.
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Alex .....point 1 is a contradiction as swinging and missing is an attempt to play the ball ?
 
But Mewcenary for credibility would it not be better to go with your Assistant? It would also enhance match control. I know in law the Assistant Referee was incorrect, but given the consequence of disallowing an equalising goal in a cup final, would it not be justified. They came to the wrong conclusion anyway.
 
To be honest chaps i would be making sure in my pre match talk that there would be no problem on this front !

It would be well covered

Also if there is problem with an Assistant s flag ,no matter how contentious i will back my assistant s call and find a way to sell it as i would any referee to do if i was on the line

Stick together on the pitch and have it out afterwards
 
Interesting you mention pre-match. The ref said to both teams 'play to the whistle this includes offsides. If I don't blow play on' hence the chaos when he allowed them to score and then disallowed it
 
Denis McCarthy said:
But Mewcenary for credibility would it not be better to go with your Assistant? It would also enhance match control. I know in law the Assistant Referee was incorrect, but given the consequence of disallowing an equalising goal in a cup final, would it not be justified. They came to the wrong conclusion anyway.
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Integrity is more important than credibility. I'd like to say what I really think about your prospect of disallowing a goal when you know it's the incorrect decision just because you think it's easier to go with the AR, but if I say what I really think SM will probably ban me.

Referee the game, make the right decisions and be enough of an adult to deal with the consequences.

Needless to say, the referee in the OP clearly doesn't have the foggiest idea what he's talking about and shouldn't have been appointed to the match.
 
Beezer said:
Alex .....point 1 is a contradiction as swinging and missing is an attempt to play the ball ?
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That'll learn me for responding on my iPad. I missed a chunk of text. I've now updated the response up there.

Apologies all. I'll stop responding to threads on mobile devices. :)
 
CapnBloodbeard, the goal would not have occurred if the ref went with the assistant. While in law I agree the goal should have been allowed and as I said previously, once the referee played on he should have allowed the goal, their credibility suffered for the rest of the game, resulting in a loss of match control.
 
yes and so was the referee in disallowing it. So for match control if he was going to disallow the goal, better to do it when the assistant flags rather than after they score and chaos reigns
 
But how could he knew he was going to disallow it ? Makes no sense, if the non-offside man had scored, this ref would obviously have allowed the goal, you can't take away from him that he had the first decision right and he was right to overrule his assistant
 
I know he was going to disallow it because that is what he did. He allowed play to continue then when the goal was scored he disallowed it. Read the originally text. I was on the other line
 
You're telling me that at this moment :

Denis McCarthy said:
I was Assistant Referee on a Cup Final recently. The play has developed down the other end of the pitch. Green were one down and pushing forward. They played the ball through to the striker who was in an offside position. He made no attempt to go for it but the Assistant raised his flag. The referee continued with play and his team mate got the ball. The keeper came out and he then squared it to the player originally offside who banged it in the onion bag. Green celebrate. The referee then disallowed the goal saying the original player interfered with play, then after the game said he gained an advantage. Prior to the game the referee mentioned he will play on if he feels the flag was raised incorrectly, so this caused a little chaos. Green lost the game.


Thoughts?
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You knew he was going to disallow a goal already and therefore, he should have gone with his assistant ?
 
That is the question I am posing. Is it best to go with your assistant for match control at that time? I personally would go with the assistant and then discuss with him at the first opportunity. I always pick it up in pre-match. In the past when it has happened I have gone with the assistant and sold it. On this occasion the referee did the wrong thing. In law it is correct to play on, however my thoughts are on match control. As has been mentioned it is a grey area that some refs will go with the assistant and some will play on.
 
Denis McCarthy said:
On this occasion the referee did the wrong thing. In law it is correct to play on, however my thoughts are on match control.
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On this occasion the ref did TWO things

One : Overrule his assistant because the offside player isn't playing the ball or interfering or whatever
At this moment, it's obvious that the ref knows that the second player, who took the ball, has the right to continue the action
Two : The GK makes a save and the ball goes to the original player, who scores, the ref disallow the goal <--- This is the only thing that is wrong here and even if the ref knew that IF this happened, he would disallow the goal, that doesn't makes his first call stupid, because the second player could have scored himself

Now we all agree that the goal should have been allowed, but the implication "he was wrong to disallow the goal after the second situation therefore he should have gone with his assistant on the first one" makes no sense

To answer your question, no we should not just go with our assistants on such obvious things like that, everyone knows that if a player in offside position shows that he doesn't care for the ball, his team mates can play it, if you go with your assistant in this situation, that's you asking for trouble, everyone is going to think that you, as the ref, don't know one of the most known rules of the game.
However, on dodgy offside, yes, we should go with our assistants even if we think that they're wrong
 
Denis McCarthy said:
That is the question I am posing. Is it best to go with your assistant for match control at that time? I personally would go with the assistant and then discuss with him at the first opportunity. I always pick it up in pre-match. In the past when it has happened I have gone with the assistant and sold it. On this occasion the referee did the wrong thing. In law it is correct to play on, however my thoughts are on match control. As has been mentioned it is a grey area that some refs will go with the assistant and some will play on.
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No, it's not. Reaching the correct decision has absolute priority, leads to credibility, and enhances match control.

In a recent game, I (completely incorrectly) flagged a player for offside. My view / decision making led to me believing the ball had been headed by an attacking player to the player in an offside position. This was wrong: It was a defender playing it deliberately.

The referee CORRECTLY ignored my flag, let play on, and a goal very quickly scored. He then came back to me to discuss the flag. By this point, I had realised I was wrong, told him that, goal given.

Reaction from teams? "Well done, it's good to see some common sense", and we had BOTH match secretaries come in after the game to say it was the correct decision (rare!)
 
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