Ladies Managing dissent or losing my rag?

[OnlyUseMeWhistle]

Had Womens game this afternoon, couple of interactions with the away bench.

1. Usual calls for push in the back, one right in front of me, I briefly explain to the appealing bench that there’s a difference between a hand on someone and a push. They’re convinced any hand contact is a foul. Don’t accept my explanation so I move on and say “if you don’t accept my explanation of the law then there’s no point continuing”. This was, in my mind, a more private warning in the stepped approach.

2. Appeals across the pitch for “kicking the ball away”. It was kicked away but it did not delay the restart for the key reason that I was dealing with discipline. Didn’t explain this as I was over the far side of the pitch.

3. Goal goes in, on the restart the assistant points out a home player has got in the face of an away player during celebrations. I go and have a word (she’s in front of the benches). As I finish that chat I get “hurry it up ref, you’re holding up the game” shouted from behind me.

I stop, (game is still not restarted after the goal), turn to the manager and say “I was dealing with this player, we’re going to get going but the running commentary and questioning of every call needs to stop.”

He responds to this by bringing up various decisions he thinks ive gotten wrong. So I say “that’s enough, no more”. When he continues I raise my voice slightly, take a firm tone and say “enough!”.

That stopped him talking, and there was no more dissent for the rest of the game. For me that was, whilst perhaps a little stronger than I’d go for usually, a big public show of “no more”.

After the game the manager comes to the dressing room, asks a few questions, is generally more polite but says he felt it was disrespectful.

I know this is a bit YHTSI but just wondered peoples thoughts on a stronger, not angry but just firm approach, think teacher who is putting a class on their last warning

 

[Homer Ref]

I spent way longer than I should have explaining a decision to a youth coach - long enough for one of their players to come over and say to them... "we just want to play football, can we do that?" Out of the mouths of babes.

I think the majority of players will find their coaches way too sensitive and that is very telling when even the players find their coach could do well to keep their mouths closed and let the game flow. I would explain to the coach that I would be open to discussion at the end of the game for any questions on the pitch but not during the game. This is where the "it's not about you ref!" comes to coachville. It is not about the coaches either!

Sometimes a card and a copy of the LOTG can go a long way tho.

 

[OldNavyRef]

If they boot the ball away. The expectation is a yellow. You can argue it didn't delay the restart but you should just be rewarding stupidity with a yellow. No one is going to argue. Observers kill for this. Makes you look small.

The manager getting so many pops at you probably could have been a yellow. It just shows your line. Ceases inviting more on. I'm super guilty of managing these situations to death, to my own detriment. No need to firm up and give final warning etc as it looks like you're loosing your cool, you asked them to stop, they didn't. Yellow.

 

[benmc]

I had a similar issue a few months back in an U17s match. Away coach constantly asking for foul on every bit of physical contact. I gave a "let me ref the game, thank you" style in the first half which stopped it until second half. Another loud shout for an absolutely nothing contact while I was the other side of pitch wait for throw in restart. I blew my whistle and shouted "hold on lads, it's more important that I speak to the coach than you play football", jogged over to him.

He gave me a whole load of questions about how nudge in the back isn't foul etc. I explained they're basically now playing adult football, so the threshold for foul contact is higher. He then asked "how am I supposed to coach them getting fouled in the back". I responded (which I'm still proud of) "it's not my job to tell you how to coach, just like it's not your job to tell me how to ref"). This conversation wasn't quiet and was right in front of his subs, the opposition and the spectators. He never said a peep for the rest of the match, and came and apologised after full time.

Sound to me like the coach in OP story didn't like having his ego dented by a strong willed referee. Pitty for them.

 

[one]

I had a similar issue a few months back in an U17s match. Away coach constantly asking for foul on every bit of physical contact. I gave a "let me ref the game, thank you" style in the first half which stopped it until second half. Another loud shout for an absolutely nothing contact while I was the other side of pitch wait for throw in restart. I blew my whistle and shouted "hold on lads, it's more important that I speak to the coach than you play football", jogged over to him.

He gave me a whole load of questions about how nudge in the back isn't foul etc. I explained they're basically now playing adult football, so the threshold for foul contact is higher. He then asked "how am I supposed to coach them getting fouled in the back". I responded (which I'm still proud of) "it's not my job to tell you how to coach, just like it's not your job to tell me how to ref"). This conversation wasn't quiet and was right in front of his subs, the opposition and the spectators. He never said a peep for the rest of the match, and came and apologised after full time.

Sound to me like the coach in OP story didn't like having his ego dented by a strong willed referee. Pitty for them.

Don't recommend getting into a pi55ing contest with a coach but sometimes you just gotta do what you gotta do. And if you do you have to make sure you will come off it on top .

 

[Kent Ref]

If a manager persists after a warning it's a yellow. I then tend to say "any more and it's going to be goodbye".

That manager was not taking you seriously.

The players that kicked the ball away needed a card as it was dissent by action, not delaying the restart.

Sometimes a card or two stops the stupid stuff.

 

[GraemeS]

The one advantage of interacting with managers is that you can just leave, and they can't follow! I always feel that if you're feeling a need to go over and calm them down, that conversation almost automatically ends with "and if I have to come back over again, it will be with a card in hand".

It sounds like you raising your voice had the same effect, and I don't know why he's winging about respect when he's delayed the game to try and subvert you. Difficult to come up with cutting lines in the moment of course, but I think it would have been fair to ask him how respected he thought you felt when he was disputing decisions you'd made 60 yards away from him?

 

[Samuel]

is generally more polite but says he felt it was disrespectful.

Ok I might differ from some others, but I wouldn't really care if he saw that as disrespectful as he had done nothing to deserve any respect by that point. Sounds like you did most things right, but I would probably have slapped a caution in his face by that point.

All of us have said something they might not usually say out of frustration but we are all human at the end of the day, as long as you don't let it affect you then it isn't the end of the world. He'll forget about it in a few days time (or sooner).

 

[JamesL]

Had Womens game this afternoon, couple of interactions with the away bench.

1. Usual calls for push in the back, one right in front of me, I briefly explain to the appealing bench that there’s a difference between a hand on someone and a push. They’re convinced any hand contact is a foul. Don’t accept my explanation so I move on and say “if you don’t accept my explanation of the law then there’s no point continuing”. This was, in my mind, a more private warning in the stepped approach.

2. Appeals across the pitch for “kicking the ball away”. It was kicked away but it did not delay the restart for the key reason that I was dealing with discipline. Didn’t explain this as I was over the far side of the pitch.

3. Goal goes in, on the restart the assistant points out a home player has got in the face of an away player during celebrations. I go and have a word (she’s in front of the benches). As I finish that chat I get “hurry it up ref, you’re holding up the game” shouted from behind me.

I stop, (game is still not restarted after the goal), turn to the manager and say “I was dealing with this player, we’re going to get going but the running commentary and questioning of every call needs to stop.”

He responds to this by bringing up various decisions he thinks ive gotten wrong. So I say “that’s enough, no more”. When he continues I raise my voice slightly, take a firm tone and say “enough!”.

That stopped him talking, and there was no more dissent for the rest of the game. For me that was, whilst perhaps a little stronger than I’d go for usually, a big public show of “no more”.

After the game the manager comes to the dressing room, asks a few questions, is generally more polite but says he felt it was disrespectful.

I know this is a bit YHTSI but just wondered peoples thoughts on a stronger, not angry but just firm approach, think teacher who is putting a class on their last warning

This is a prime example of emotive refereeing. He has achieved what he wanted and that was to get a rise from you.

Consider the ask, tell, warn, sanction approach (obviously depending on severity we can jump a step or more if required).

Ask: Coach, I saw it differently, it's not a push. Can you please stop contesting every decision I make.

Tell: Coach, it didn't delay the restart..I asked you earlier, I'm now telling you you run the risk of me needing to take futher action if the behaviour doesn't improve

Warn: ok coach, I've asked you, I've told you, I'm now warning you about your future conduct, you're running the risk and getting very close to a card.

Sanction.

We can do all of the above, calm as you like without ever showing the coach any emotions.

 

[OnlyUseMeWhistle]

This is a prime example of emotive refereeing. He has achieved what he wanted and that was to get a rise from you.

Consider the ask, tell, warn, sanction approach (obviously depending on severity we can jump a step or more if required).

Ask: Coach, I saw it differently, it's not a push. Can you please stop contesting every decision I make.

Tell: Coach, it didn't delay the restart..I asked you earlier, I'm now telling you you run the risk of me needing to take futher action if the behaviour doesn't improve

Warn: ok coach, I've asked you, I've told you, I'm now warning you about your future conduct, you're running the risk and getting very close to a card.

Sanction.

We can do all of the above, calm as you like without ever showing the coach any emotions.

Probably the best laying out of a stepped approach I’ve ever seen and I’ll be applying this in future. Thank you!

 

[Archer]

Obviously subjective, but Tell and Warn come together for me. Third time’s the charm (yellow).

 

[JamesL]

Obviously subjective, but Tell and Warn come together for me. Third time’s the charm (yellow).

Yep, fair. Ask, warn tell report is what I ask ARs to do and if I am dealing with it then it's usually minimum 3, private chat, public B*ollocking, sanction.
But it's easy to lay out in that way, different phrases to use, and always caveat of skipping out some steps if behaviour requires it.

 

[one]

This is a prime example of emotive refereeing. He has achieved what he wanted and that was to get a rise from you.

Consider the ask, tell, warn, sanction approach (obviously depending on severity we can jump a step or more if required).

Ask: Coach, I saw it differently, it's not a push. Can you please stop contesting every decision I make.

Tell: Coach, it didn't delay the restart..I asked you earlier, I'm now telling you you run the risk of me needing to take futher action if the behaviour doesn't improve

Warn: ok coach, I've asked you, I've told you, I'm now warning you about your future conduct, you're running the risk and getting very close to a card.

Sanction.

We can do all of the above, calm as you like without ever showing the coach any emotions.

In most cases, especially if you have to run/walk all the way to TA, anything other than one approach without sanction will be seen as weak refereeing and sends the wrong message.
For me, the coach gets one chance from me without a sanction.
If I have AR, the ask is left to the AR, I do the tell/warn in one go. Next one is a sanction.
If I don't have AR, ask,tell and warn is all in one approach.

 

[Kes]

In most cases, especially if you have to run/walk all the way to TA, anything other than one approach without sanction will be seen as weak refereeing and sends the wrong message.
For me, the coach gets one chance from me without a sanction.
If I have AR, the ask is left to the AR, I do the tell/warn in one go. Next one is a sanction.
If I don't have AR, ask,tell and warn is all in one approach.

Totally agree.
By the time you jog over and "have a word" it's normally got to the stage that it's affecting the game/match control or undermining you at best.
Everyone sees you go over to speak to the technical area. Doing it again without sanction isn't advisable.
If I'm operating as an AR, most referees I've worked for say "Manage the benches please until you can't - if you call me over I'm expecting to issue a card".

 

[JamesL]

I'm sort of assuming OP is on their own here and whilst it's great to slopey shoulder some of the initial management on the AR we still need strategies and coping mechanisms for when the AR is a CAR and is not empowered to manage the TA's.

I'm not suggesting we go over three times before sanction. We find opportunities to have these steps without formalising. I agree once we start formalising, such as going over, holding the game up then it's action time which is why we always have the option to jump a step or 2 when required.

There will be times where we go over and just warn, because that's what the warning list is for. And you can't issue a caution for multiple warning offences unless you've done the warning.

So you need to be able to deal and manage these situations. As we've said on here many times to ignore is to encourage. So we don't just ignore until we get to a sanctionable offence. We take the opportunities that will occur to deal effectively and also set up persistent minor misbehaviour, or de-escalate and prevent the later steps.

 

[OnlyUseMeWhistle]

I'm sort of assuming OP is on their own here and whilst it's great to slopey shoulder some of the initial management on the AR we still need strategies and coping mechanisms for when the AR is a CAR and is not empowered to manage the TA's.

I'm not suggesting we go over three times before sanction. We find opportunities to have these steps without formalising. I agree once we start formalising, such as going over, holding the game up then it's action time which is why we always have the option to jump a step or 2 when required.

There will be times where we go over and just warn, because that's what the warning list is for. And you can't issue a caution for multiple warning offences unless you've done the warning.

So you need to be able to deal and manage these situations. As we've said on here many times to ignore is to encourage. So we don't just ignore until we get to a sanctionable offence. We take the opportunities that will occur to deal effectively and also set up persistent minor misbehaviour, or de-escalate and prevent the later steps.

For context I did have NARs, the two times I interacted with the bench I was very close by so didn't 'go over' so to speak.

If I had run over I would be issuing a caution but obviously, with the benefit of hindsight, it shouldn't make a huge difference.

I found what I did worked, and in the past I have found a caution hasn't, but I'd probably go caution with the benefit of hindsight and your very clearly laid out process

 

[GraemeS]

Respectfully, that sounds like a slightly roundabout way of saying you were shouting at the benches from a bit of a distance? I think perhaps that's what's caused this to get a little more heated than it needed to?

You didn't make a point of specifically "going over", so it probably didn't read like a formal decision to begin the warning process. You also interacted with the benches a few times while having NARs - again, I'd agree with other comments suggesting that when you do have NARs, the referees involvement with the benches should be much more limited, likely only to issue formal discipline. By getting involved informally, you've perhaps both subverted your ARs authority, and also lowered yourself to being involved in things that ideally you want to not have to worry about?

In the past when I've been fairly close to the benches but not wanted to get involved, I've had success delaying the restart and visibly gesturing my senior AR to go and have a word (no comms obviously). It makes the same point that you're becoming more aware of them than is ideal, but without "lowering yourself" to getting intimately involved in the warning stages.

I would suggest generally considering that approach or similar, because once you've progressed to regularly having NARs, you ideally want the benches to not be your problem any more. Trust and empower your NARs to handle the minor stuff, make the simple act of you having to get involved a big deal in and of itself. It gives that action more gravitas and authority from the moment it has to happen.

 

[Farncombe Pete]

Very good points made above.

I generally pretend I can't hear the coach and only speak to them if it's getting ridiculous.

Steve Peters "The Chimp Paradox" is useful in understanding what's going on I'm the coach's head.

 

[OnlyUseMeWhistle]

@Steve Fall Don't expose me here

 

[Steve Fall]

All I will say is don't beat yourself up over it. They knew what they were doing, constantly calling for arms etc - never in a disrepectful way.. Just persistant..

Hold your head up and move on...