A&H

Manager undermining?

I

ionalawson14

New Member
Level 7 Referee
Hi all, just looking for some advice.

I reffed an U14s game today, It was quite a close game, and I feel like I kept control of it well and had a laugh with the players, but also really enjoyed the majority of the game. There were 2 players (one from each team) who were both constantly going at each other, making comments and winding each other. They were both gradually getting more and more feisty and aggressive towards each other and booked them both in a short space of time from each other. Both players took the booking well and cooled off a lot (so it worked quite well). The home manager decided he wasn't happy with this decision and made this very clear. At the end of the game I had a chat with both managers and the away boss understood completely, but the home manager said that I made the wrong decision- he had done the league ref course- and it should have been dissent- despite them never complaining about decisions at all. I felt really undermined and as I walked away the manager said to his players that im just a young ref and it was the wrong decision.
Correct me if I've done anything wrong here, and if anyone had any advice on anything to take from this and anything I could improve, it would be massively appreciated.

Thanks :)
 
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ionalawson14 said:
Hi all, just looking for some advice.

I reffed an U14s game today, It was quite a close game, and I feel like I kept control of it well and had a laugh with the players, but also really enjoyed the majority of the game. There were 2 players (one from each team) who were both constantly going at each other, making comments and winding each other. They were both gradually getting more and more feisty and aggressive towards each other and booked them both in a short space of time from each other. Both players took the booking well and cooled off a lot (so it worked quite well). The home manager decided he wasn't happy with this decision and made this very clear. At the end of the game I had a chat with both managers and the away boss understood completely, but the home manager said that I made the wrong decision- he had done the league ref course- and it should have been dissent- despite them never complaining about decisions at all. I felt really undermined and as I walked away the manager said to his players that im just a young ref and it was the wrong decision.
Correct me if I've done anything wrong here, and if anyone had any advice on anything to take from this and anything I could improve, it would be massively appreciated.

Thanks :)
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Sounds OK to me Iona
Do continue to be vigilant for this sort of behaviour from players at that age. It can quickly escalate
Don't fret about comments after the game too much. Such feedback is rarely as accurate as your impartial eye, so believe in your decisions and take the criticism with a big pinch of salt
The team against whom I gave a penalty yesterday were incensed and there was all sorts of shenanigans to deal with in the aftermath. Fortunately for my own sanity, I was being assessed and the observer said it was a certain penalty after the game. It's hard not to doubt yourself, but yesterday is an example of how player and manager reactions can be miles off
 
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What @Big Cat said. Carry out your own reflection on the game to identify both good and less good things, use them to be better next time. Never give the stuff managers say much credence.
 
They say a little knowledge can be a dangerous thing. I'm referring to the manager that claims he has completed the referees course and using that to tell you that you were wrong. Almost all practising referees would accept that in your opinion at that time of the game the booking was the right decision. They might offer their advice if they have any to offer to improve your game but they wouldn't undermine you in this manner (in my experience). A manager that has just lost a match due to his own mistakes, his players mistakes, inability or because they have been beaten by a better team will at times blame the referee, more so when the referee is U18.

Stay strong, stand by your decisions especially when you have issued a caution.
 
Hi @ionalawson14

If these were comments made at the end of the game without players being around you, take it as a difference of opinion.

His opinion that it was dissent, so it should have been dealt with as Sinbins, rather than a YC.

But the Laws say "in the opinion of the referee". Are you happy with what have?
Don't worry about it.
 
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Rarely, as yesterday (for me), do we have anyone neutral to verify our decisions at grass roots. It's extraordinarily difficult to not doubt ourselves when faced with competing opinions from all directions. I think this is at the core of what makes refereeing so challenging
 
Thank you all, I think it’s was more frustration that I felt today, as I’ve had my fair share of chat from managers before especially since I started pretty young and it doesn’t normally bother me. It was probably just the I’m a ref comment that made me think. I’m done with it now though and on to next week!
 
Big Cat said:
Rarely, as yesterday (for me), do we have anyone neutral to verify our decisions at grass roots. It's extraordinarily difficult to not doubt ourselves when faced with competing opinions from all directions. I think this is at the core of what makes refereeing so challenging
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Very true, I’ve definitely found how important self reflection is
 
Now I’ve retired it’s amazing the number of people I’ve spoke to who wouldn’t be a ref any day of the week. They can latterly accept decisions that you make in a split second with limited vision but at the time it’s like you’ve slept with their sister!
 
Dissent is a challenge to the referee's authority. The players were getting at each other so that can't be dissent and so is a booking not a sin bin.

Sounds like you did the right thing and have to chalk it up to a manager not knowing the Laws (if I had a penny....)
 
Big Cat said:
Amazing how often this gets said. That pinch of salt is the size of the White Cliffs of Dover
Besides, they're not the ref, so it's utterly irrelevant
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They often say it because they have done a laws of the game module that is part of the level 1 and 2 coaching course. That clearly doesn't make them a qualified referee though.
 
Big Cat said:
Rarely, as yesterday (for me), do we have anyone neutral to verify our decisions at grass roots. It's extraordinarily difficult to not doubt ourselves when faced with competing opinions from all directions. I think this is at the core of what makes refereeing so challenging
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I agree and sometimes, only sometimes though!, it can just be that players/managers have a different physical actual view.

Had a player politely & genuinely ask me yesteday if an offside call was close - it wasn't but I could tell she honestly thought it was.

A late penalty appeal from the managers wasn't matched by the actual player 'fouled' - in this case they were just too far away to see what me and the player did or in this case didn't see.

A non offside again got a polite enquiry from the bench - again it wasn't even close - a perfectly timed run.

However about 85% (made up stat alert!) of the time managers and players are just 'appealing' without any real grounds, so as Big Cat says it can be incredibly difficult to keep the belief in your own decisions.

Only advice I can give is that usually after a few years you get to know when you are wrong and even then you and they just have to accept that like players and managers we do indeed make the odd mistake!
 
Unfortunately it is fairly common for managers to put doubt in the mind of newer referees. It's because a new ref is still learning even some of the more basic stuff and sometimes they even doubt themselves without anyone else saying anything.

Learn your laws of the game the best you can so they can't dispute the black and white stuff. Anything opinion based, just respond with, I respect your opinion but my opinion as the referee is different to yours.

Another skill to learn is not getting into a debate with a manager who is unhappy with your decision. Mid game if he is being disruptive, deal with it as "ask, tell, remove" (or ask, yellow, red). After the game you don't need to approach them to explain your decisions. If they approach you for an explanation, respectfully give an answer with no follow ups, that becomes a debate. Just say I have given you an answer and don't wish to get into a debate or an argument. Walk away.
 
one said:
Unfortunately it is fairly common for managers to put doubt in the mind of newer referees. It's because a new ref is still learning even some of the more basic stuff and sometimes they even doubt themselves without anyone else saying anything.

Learn your laws of the game the best you can so they can't dispute the black and white stuff. Anything opinion based, just respond with, I respect your opinion but my opinion as the referee is different to yours.

Another skill to learn is not getting into a debate with a manager who is unhappy with your decision. Mid game if he is being disruptive, deal with it as "ask, tell, remove" (or ask, yellow, red). After the game you don't need to approach them to explain your decisions. If they approach you for an explanation, respectfully give an answer with no follow ups, that becomes a debate. Just say I have given you an answer and don't wish to get into a debate or an argument. Walk away.
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Have to agree - 'discussions' after games rarely go well
 
one said:
Unfortunately it is fairly common for managers to put doubt in the mind of newer referees. It's because a new ref is still learning even some of the more basic stuff and sometimes they even doubt themselves without anyone else saying anything.

Learn your laws of the game the best you can so they can't dispute the black and white stuff. Anything opinion based, just respond with, I respect your opinion but my opinion as the referee is different to yours.

Another skill to learn is not getting into a debate with a manager who is unhappy with your decision. Mid game if he is being disruptive, deal with it as "ask, tell, remove" (or ask, yellow, red). After the game you don't need to approach them to explain your decisions. If they approach you for an explanation, respectfully give an answer with no follow ups, that becomes a debate. Just say I have given you an answer and don't wish to get into a debate or an argument. Walk away.
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Okay, thanks guys, that's probably the best way to go about it. I've never done that disscusion after the game thing before and I think it was pretty ineffective to be honest haha. I know for next time and I've learnt a lot from this game which is a big positive.
 
ionalawson14 said:
It was probably just the I’m a ref comment that made me think.
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Second-guessing yourself and reflecting is vital to improving, but not when it's instigated by people with other motives. Put it this way, you did the course and qualified, would you ever tell a fellow referee that they got things wrong in front of the players? In all likelihood Rusty is right, they've done a bit of a course and think they know it all - but they don't know what it feels like to actually be a referee and the chances are they aren't anywhere near familiar enough with the laws and associated advice.

I put this in the same camp as Carragher and friends debating 'reckless' challenges that deserve a sending off, or talking about intent. They know a little, but not enough to know that they're wrong!

The advice about recognising opinion and responding in kind is really valuable, and works with players, spectators and the occasional manager/coach/club linesman too. And the fact you're reflecting on all of this will only make you more and more capable of dealing with these situations when you arrive.
 
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