RefSix

Made a mess of 3 things within about 30 seconds!

Mada

Member
Level 7 Referee
Scenario: The blue team are attacking and there is a challenge on the half way line, I play on as I didn't see too much wrong at the time and the ball gets hit towards the corner. While the ball is moving I notice the 2 players on the half way line squaring up and confronting one another as the blue team has taken exception to the tackle. Que some minor pushing followed by the blue player petulantly kicking the other player as he goes to run past while the ball is still in play.

Here's where I went wrong:

1) I should have given the free kick to the blue team or at the least played advantage
2) I felt like I had to do something for the kick out (very minor, more like a tap of the ankles) but didn't deem it to be a red for violent conduct although I was asked after the game why it wasn't a red. I put the caution through for adopting an aggressive attitude
3) I struggled with the restart, I had to stop the game once they were confronting one another (I had CAR's). In the end I brought it back for a blue free kick on the half way line on the basis that the blue player was impeded. I don't think this was correct in law, in hindsight I wonder if I should have dropped the ball for the team in possession in the corner. It was a difficult one as I had to try and keep an eye on both the ball and the confrontation to my right hand side (perhaps I should have had a wider view too). At the time my priority was stopping the confrontation before it could escalate (which I did), but it affected my ability to correctly restart the game.

Before that the game was going very well but this flash point ended up being a key match incident as the blue team smashed the ball forward from the free kick and the keeper fumbled it leading to a goal. The other team also said they wasn't ready for the restart either and had too many players pushed forward.

This was an unusual situation but it must have looked extremely messy and I felt like I became a bit unstuck and let my inexperience show. It also got in my head and for the next 5-10 mins I was thinking about it instead of getting it out of my head and moving on.
 

QuaverRef

I used to be indecisive but now i'm not so sure
Level 5 Referee
Out of curiosity, you said you didn't see too much wrong but then said you should have given the free kick. What's made you change your mind?
 

Mada

Member
Level 7 Referee
Out of curiosity, you said you didn't see too much wrong but then said you should have given the free kick. What's made you change your mind?
Quite honestly because at the time it seemed the right way to restart the match based on the blue player's reaction and the fact that when I blew the whistle to stop the game I wasn't sure who had possession in the corner because I was watching the confrontation. I didn't do a great job of managing the situation if I'm honest, it looked very messy! It also felt awkward giving the foul to the blue team and then cautioning the blue player!
 

santa sangria

RefChat Addict
Your initial reaction was no foul, that's fine.

You probably don't want to play advantage if handbags are starting, unless there is a clear goalscoring opportunity. But here if your decision was no foul, then obviously no advantage.

For the restart you have to decide what happened first. It seems like the blue reacted first and therefore the restart should be DFK to red.

Drop ball is a poor choice here. For a drop ball, your decision your reasoning would have to be that two offences of equal severity were committed at exactly the same time - it's not realistic.

Sanctions: blue yellow card, good, your reasoning is sound. YHTBT but if red also reacted by shoving etc. then yellow to red is also easy to justify.

The most important thing (probably) in a situation like this is how you sell it:
First thing to note is that you recognized it was an important key match incident. That suggests sprint in, loud whistling, stun the players, keep other players away if you can. If other players start a mass con then you should retreat and observe.
Then some referees, depending on the situation, will get the yellow card in hand as they sprint in. This is not always appropriate. Sometimes it's the perfect way to diffuse a situation (blue knows they are going to be punished, reds don't start appealing for a RC). But this has to be used with care. If the handbags are ongoing then it might be the wrong colour!

Then, how can you handle the players? Talk to them before you start the ceremonial isolation, cards etc. Manage expectations - especially the blue offender. "I didn't see a foul so it's a free kick to red for the reaction". Some referees will take this further: "you both need to come with me and it's yellow for both of you". Then isolate the pair of them - retreat and bring them with you. Make sure everyone else is away and calm. Always face the field and all the players. Give both players a little speech and the yellow cards. My preference is usually to say something like "look, this is for the cameras so listen for a sec..."

All this takes a bit of time. That's good. You are taking control. The players are given time to calm down.
 
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Viking

Q-1994, Re-qualified 2019 Worcestershire UK
Level 7 Referee
Does feel odd to not see anything and then give a blue free kick, even though it the blue kick that you actually saw. A lot talk locally amongst refs of 'what's expected'. I'd be interested in hearing if there was any dissent to the fact that you did give the blues a DFK. If not, then it suggests there was a foul committed by the red in the first place and that the onlookers expected you to pull it back for a blue free kick.

I had a situation a couple of weeks ago in an u15 game where a blue had gone passed the green but was then pulled down just outside the box, No DOGSO. Blue then gave a full kick to the back of the green on the ground. Handbag confrontation and I found myself saying 'remember 12, remember 12' as I needed to RC him. 12 scuttled off to the far side of the pitch whilst teammates pushed. I stood back looking for any afters and then signalled to get both sets of players apart. RC for 12 blue and YC for green. Then I did a double take as I realised that someone from the parent side of the pitch had come rushing on in the previous 20 secs but when I'd realised what I thought I'd seen, they had disappeared. I was thankful the parent hadn't lamped someone as my brain hadn't processed that intruder quickly enough.
 

one

RefChat Addict
Level 7 Referee
Sometimes spitting (or stepping on) on a spark seems awkward and not the right thing to do but it means you don't have to get the fire brigade a few minutes later. Anticipate any escalation early and stop it there. Sometimes it means giving a very soft free kick which could go either way. This is a lot easier with more experience.

playing advantage on an incident that could escalate is not wise.

Generally speaking one when an incident like this happens two main things to consider is (in this oreder) bring it back under control, take action so that you keep control for the rest of the game. It usually means yellow carding both players. Of course it can be red if you deem it that way or no card for one or both side if it is clear none is at fault (unlikely).

Restart is the least of your worries around the half way. It's good to get it right in law but it's even better to just sell whatever restart you decide well.
 

Peter Grove

RefChat Addict
Drop ball is a poor choice here. For a drop ball, your decision your reasoning would have to be that two offences of equal severity were committed at exactly the same time - it's not realistic.
Just a little technical quibble here. A dropped ball for simultaneous offences is no longer permitted in Law, according to the IFAB. The Law now says that the referee:
punishes the more serious offence, in terms of sanction, restart, physical severity and tactical impact, when more than one offence occurs at the same time
I sent a query to the IFAB asking, "Does this [new wording] mean that giving a dropped ball for simultaneous offences is no longer permitted and that the referee must always make a decision on which is the more serious offence?"

This is the reply I received:

IMG_20200211_155041.png
 

santa sangria

RefChat Addict
Just a little technical quibble here. A dropped ball for simultaneous offences is no longer permitted in Law, according to the IFAB. The Law now says that the referee:


I sent a query to the IFAB asking, "Does this [new wording] mean that giving a dropped ball for simultaneous offences is no longer permitted and that the referee must always make a decision on which is the more serious offence?"

This is the reply I received:

View attachment 4064
Ha! I'm glad you posted that. I did actually go to the book (well, the PDF) and search for the clause. I couldn't find it... that explains why!
Thanks Peter, perhaps David has a job for you re-writing the futsal book ;)
 

RobOda

RefChat Addict
Level 3 Referee
I sent a query to the IFAB asking, "Does this [new wording] mean that giving a dropped ball for simultaneous offences is no longer permitted and that the referee must always make a decision on which is the more serious offence?"
Just to clarify;

If he blows the whistle to stop things when he sees it is starting to escalate, should it still be a drop ball because any potential offences are happening when play is dead? Wouldn't this simultaneous offences issue only crop up if he is late to the party and whistles only once everything has kicked off?

1) I should have given the free kick to the blue team or at the least played advantage
2) I felt like I had to do something for the kick out (very minor, more like a tap of the ankles) but didn't deem it to be a red for violent conduct although I was asked after the game why it wasn't a red. I put the caution through for adopting an aggressive attitude
3) I struggled with the restart, I had to stop the game once they were confronting one another (I had CAR's). In the end I brought it back for a blue free kick on the half way line on the basis that the blue player was impeded. I don't think this was correct in law, in hindsight I wonder if I should have dropped the ball for the team in possession in the corner. It was a difficult one as I had to try and keep an eye on both the ball and the confrontation to my right hand side (perhaps I should have had a wider view too). At the time my priority was stopping the confrontation before it could escalate (which I did), but it affected my ability to correctly restart the game.

Before that the game was going very well but this flash point ended up being a key match incident as the blue team smashed the ball forward from the free kick and the keeper fumbled it leading to a goal. The other team also said they wasn't ready for the restart either and had too many players pushed forward.
If I could butt in and try to offer some thoughts;

With 1. Only if you genuinely think it was a foul. You have doubts due to the reaction of the player, that suggests you're not fully confident of your foul detection just yet. That will come in time, but try not to be too reliant on player reactions, some will go ever so dramatic over minor offences at times.

However, if you thought it was no offence, then that is fine. One thing that could help you in the future is to be verbal. Next time an incident like this happens, shout that you've seen it and think it is fair. If you see them squaring up, shout to them to knock it off, they'll be aware that you're watching them and this may cut things off from escalating.

Alternatively, next time it happens, blow the whistle and storm in to kill the situation, don't worry too much at this point in your career where the ball goes, the key is to kill the major situation off before it goes any further. In future, with experience you can handle it in different ways.

With 2. I think a kick out off the ball is a straight red full stop, even as trivial as you might think they are, a kick or punch or attempted kick/punch off the ball has no reason to happen outside of violent conduct. If I was a player I might be asking the question here, because you now look indecisive for point 1, and you've shied away from a major decision for point 2.

Finally, with the 3rd point, you go on to say that the opposition team wasn't ready etc, but that doesn't make sense to me, why would they have players pushed up etc? Did you not manage the free-kick? Did you restart with the whistle? Did you let the blue team take it before you were ready?

For me, you deal with the sanctions first, write it down and then get into position for the free-kick, which would be in the opposition area more likely. Then you blow the whistle for the restart. After going through all those steps, I cannot see why the opposition wouldn't be ready for the inevitable free-kick? Were you standing on the halfway line letting them punt it forward? I need more details here.

Don't take this as me trying to bring you down or anything, it's all experience, but if I could give any advice to you it is to remember that as the referee, everything on the football pitch goes on your timeframe. Don't let players rush you, whistle and take as much time as you need to process and solve the situation before moving on and try your best not to second-guess yourself. Players will accept you making a mistake, but they will zero in on you if they sense you're wobbling/indecisive or unsure.
 

CanuckRef

Active Member
Level 3 Referee
So there is a lot here, and I bet that it was overwhelming while you were out there and all eyes (eventually) fell on you. That's our life as referees and the more it happens, the better you will be at handling these situations. There are two major aspects to dealing with situations like this one: first (and by far the most important) is to be correct in law; second (and still important but less important than the first) is to correctly manage the situation.

As you reflect on the match, I encourage you to look at this as two separate incidents: first, the potential foul around the halfway line and, second, the misconduct that followed afterwards. That will break it down into manageable chunks for reflection. For each, ask yourself: "was my response to the incident correct in law? If not, how did I make an error and how can I fix this going forward?" Then ask yourself: "did I manage the situation well? If not, how can I improve my management of the situation in the future?"

It sounds like you are having some trouble processing the whole thing because you have not been able to adequately break this down into phases. That is why the restart you chose was incorrect: the restart should be a DFK for red because the blue player committed a foul by "kicking or attempting to kick an opponent" around the halfway line. That kick or attempt to kick is probably violent conduct because, since there is no reason to use force, any force in this case "far exceeds the necessary use of force" in the situation.

As I said, there are two incidents to focus on here: the first is the potential foul challenge of red against blue; the second is the kick-out of blue against red. That handbags that followed are, for my money, not really worth considering unless they were particularly aggressive. For each of those two incidents for consideration, I encourage you to reflect on whether you were correct in law and then how your management can improve.

If you reflect on it like this, please share your conclusions with us so we can all learn.
 

Peter Grove

RefChat Addict
If he blows the whistle to stop things when he sees it is starting to escalate, should it still be a drop ball because any potential offences are happening when play is dead? Wouldn't this simultaneous offences issue only crop up if he is late to the party and whistles only once everything has kicked off?
I suppose the answer to this is that the law still allows for a dropped ball for "non-specific" stoppages, as follows:
A dropped ball is the restart when the referee stops play and the Law does not require one of the [other] restarts.
So if the referee stops play and cannot identify a specific offence by anyone, then I reckon they could still restart with a dropped ball. They just can't do it for simultaneous offences, that's all.
 

one

RefChat Addict
Level 7 Referee
You can not drop ball for any offence that occurs when the ball was in play.
 

GraemeS

RefChat Addict
Level 5 Referee
You can not drop ball for any offence that occurs when the ball was in play.
That makes no sense to me? If the ball is already out of play, you would restart with the restart associated with the reason it went out of play. So if all the above is true, there would be no need for a drop ball.

You might be correct if the emphasis is on the word "offence", but then you start to have to have an argument about the definition of "offence"....
 

one

RefChat Addict
Level 7 Referee
That makes no sense to me? If the ball is already out of play, you would restart with the restart associated with the reason it went out of play. So if all the above is true, there would be no need for a drop ball.

You might be correct if the emphasis is on the word "offence", but then you start to have to have an argument about the definition of "offence"....
So am I right or am I wrong here. Or let's resolve this with a question to see if I can make it make sense.

Can you think of any offence(s) you stop the game for and then you restart with a dropped ball?

As I write this I realise I should add the condition 'offence on the field of play' or 'by a player'.
 

Mada

Member
Level 7 Referee
Thanks for some of the comments, I can see you have taken a lot of time to try and help me.

In hindsight I really wish a) I could have watched it again and seen myself handle this from other people's perspective to see how it looked and b) not panicked about the restart as that's what seemed to cause me hassle and make me look indecisive

I still maintain it would have been a harsh red but nonetheless the way @CanuckRef explains it (i.e. completely unnecessary and no need to use force in the situation) does make me think I may have got this wrong and should have gone with the red.

Looking at the positives, I'm glad I stopped the game to prevent the confrontation escalating and did at least something by giving the yellow. If I am in a similar situation in the future I'll be better equipped to deal with it. A couple of things I'm trying to work on is my positioning on the diagonal and also my foul detection/tolerance. I think both of these will improve with time and help me if something like this was to happen again.
 

CanuckRef

Active Member
Level 3 Referee
Experience tends to breed out these kinds of errors because, more often than not, they are errors due to panic. Once you've seen the same old thing over and over again, it will become much easier to deal with it calmly. Good on you for reflecting on your errors and trying to grow and good luck to you in the rest of your season.
 
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