Ref4Me

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SurreyWolves

Active Member
Level 7 Referee
What a horrible injury. Now I am not questioning the red card, but this shows exactly why tackles from behind are so dangerous.

Really hope Elliot gets better soon - the worst part of the game!
 
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Matthew

RefChat Addict
Level 7 Referee
Obviously it’s a horrific injury, but (and I say this without having been able to see a replay) I don’t actually think it was a RC challenge.

Happy to correct myself when I can see a reply, but I suspect Pawson has refereed the outcome rather than the challenge itself.
 

Tealeaf

Lighting the darkest hour
Staff member
Level 5 Referee
Unless you’re watching live, you’re unlikely to see the challenge by Struijk on Elliot.

It leaves Elliot’s ankle in a position it isn’t supposed to be. There was some criticism from the commentators that the red card was because of the injury and that the challenge itself didn’t warrant it.

That’s fundamentally wrong - this isn’t like the Gomes -Son incident from a couple of years ago, where the injury came from a subsequent collision.

The injury is serious, and is caused by the challenge. Unintentional, but an absolute crystal clear example of seriously endangering the opponent’s safety. It can only be red.
 

wazztie16

Level 7 Referee
Level 7 Referee
Obviously it’s a horrific injury, but (and I say this without having been able to see a replay) I don’t actually think it was a RC challenge.

Happy to correct myself when I can see a reply, but I suspect Pawson has refereed the outcome rather than the challenge itself.
It's on YouTube, most recently uploaded if you search for Harvey Elliott.

It's a bit graphic though, as you'd expect.

I read about it on BBC, and found the replay. I didn't think RC either.
 

GraemeS

RefChat Addict
Level 5 Referee
It got an "ooof" from me as he left the ground in real time. No interest in a replay, but I had it as an off-the-ground scissor from behind so definitely not surprised to see red - biggest surprise was it looked like nothing was being given on the pitch initially!
 

SurreyWolves

Active Member
Level 7 Referee
It got an "ooof" from me as he left the ground in real time. No interest in a replay, but I had it as an off-the-ground scissor from behind so definitely not surprised to see red - biggest surprise was it looked like nothing was being given on the pitch initially!
That’s what I thought. Tackles from behind are so risky because of less protection and ‘weak spots’.
 

Paul_10

Member
Obviously it’s a horrific injury, but (and I say this without having been able to see a replay) I don’t actually think it was a RC challenge.

Happy to correct myself when I can see a reply, but I suspect Pawson has refereed the outcome rather than the challenge itself.

Which is I believe should not be the case but if a reckless tackle which normally would be a yellow results in a very serious injury then I think a red card is justified.

It reminds of the Son red at Everton, maybe the tackle was a yellow(despite no attempt to play the ball) but the resulting Injury(albeit because of contact from another player) meant Atkinson give a red card. Unbelievably the FA rescinded that red card so I would suspect Leeds will try and appeal this red card?
 

QuaverRef

I used to be indecisive but now i'm not so sure
Red for me - and unfortunately it’s caused serious injury. He’s left the ground using a scissor motion, with the trailing leg landing on the back of elliots leg. It’s an awful challenge.
 

Paul_10

Member
Red for me - and unfortunately it’s caused serious injury. He’s left the ground using a scissor motion, with the trailing leg landing on the back of elliots leg. It’s an awful challenge.

Just seen a clip on Youtube and I disagree, if the injury did not occur I don't think Pawson would even whistle that for a foul. Unlike the Son tackle which was reckless and no attempt to play the ball, this was an attempt to win the ball, it's a tough one for the referee because of the injury but imo Leeds should get that red card rescinded.
 

QuaverRef

I used to be indecisive but now i'm not so sure
Just seen a clip on Youtube and I disagree, if the injury did not occur I don't think Pawson would even whistle that for a foul. Unlike the Son tackle which was reckless and no attempt to play the ball, this was an attempt to win the ball, it's a tough one for the referee because of the injury but imo Leeds should get that red card rescinded.
Attempt to win the ball is irrelevant. How can we allow players to come off the ground and land on the back of a players leg?
 

Tealeaf

Lighting the darkest hour
Staff member
Level 5 Referee
Just seen a clip on Youtube and I disagree, if the injury did not occur I don't think Pawson would even whistle that for a foul. Unlike the Son tackle which was reckless and no attempt to play the ball, this was an attempt to win the ball, it's a tough one for the referee because of the injury but imo Leeds should get that red card rescinded.
If the injury didn’t occur, his safety wouldn’t have been endangered.

It’s like if you’re driving. If you brake and still hit the car in front, you’re liable. Anything that occurs as a consequence of you hitting that car is down to you. You didn’t mean to do it, but you caused it and anything that follows.
 

QuaverRef

I used to be indecisive but now i'm not so sure
Just seen a clip on Youtube and I disagree, if the injury did not occur I don't think Pawson would even whistle that for a foul. Unlike the Son tackle which was reckless and no attempt to play the ball, this was an attempt to win the ball, it's a tough one for the referee because of the injury but imo Leeds should get that red card rescinded.
Ok, slightly change the scenario. If he doesn’t win the ball, what are you going with?
 

Paul_10

Member
Attempt to win the ball is irrelevant. How can we allow players to come off the ground and land on the back of a players leg?
I don't think he had two feet off the ground though and I'm sure a referee should not be influenced by the injury hence Sons red card was overturned. As I say a reckless tackle which would be a yellow which causes a serious injury should be a red card, its hard to say whether this would class as that as I don't think many referees would whistle that as a foul.
 

RustyRef

Administrator
Staff member
It's a really difficult one, real time the tackle didn't look bad at all and Pawson wasn't even going to give a free kick. That may or may not be down to the directive to let more physical play go this season (which I suspect Klopp will argue about), but the trailing leg has obviously caused the problem.

On the flip side it is extremely difficult to say it didn't endanger his opponent as it has clearly broken his leg. I don't agree with the view put forward at the time that Pawson was always going to go red and he was clearly playing on, I would assume that Andy Madley has told him to go red.
 

Tealeaf

Lighting the darkest hour
Staff member
Level 5 Referee
The situation isn’t being helped by pundits like Jamie Redknapp conflating intent, with endangering the player’s safety.

And also saying that every time you go in for a tackle you’re endangering someone. Another redundant BS argument.
 

bester

RefChat Addict
Level 7 Referee
Why is Pawson discussing it with the VAR before he's made an onfield decision?
 

JamesL

RefChat Addict
Level 4 Referee
Why is Pawson discussing it with the VAR before he's made an onfield decision?
The on field decision was apparently play on.
Play was stopped due to serious injury.
At which point VAR will be reccomending review.
 
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