Length of Observation

[DB]

So this is a question to gauge opinions on Observations.

With my job in the Military, I'm used to writing reports. And having been trained to a particularly high standard in Quality Assurance, I'm quite meticulous in my approach.

I take that into my Observation Reports aswell.

When I was going through levels 7-5, I found that some observer reports were good. But I also found some were pretty poor in the sense that I didn't get anything from them. One of the ones I received once was literally two paragraphs long... The observer appeared in the second half and then left midway through but gave me some good words from incidents from the first half which which never even happened.I felt let down back then because I wanted an in-depth assessment of what I'd displayed, with plenty of development points to enable me to progress.

I've been observing for a few seasons now and I've found that when I go and talk to referees (7-5), they also want a good, solid and in depth report.

My observation forms for 7-6 and 7-5 are often around 4-5 pages long (in the coloured format, inclusive of the 2 pages of standard forms and an illustration page at the end, so my actual words total about 1 A4 page). All with plenty of timing-based information, examples. In the bottom, if I've picked someone up for free kick positioning, I will add pictures from Practical Guidance (LOTG) and as all my Observations are done electronically, I sometimes send hyperlinks to demonstration videos. On follow ups with the referees that I observe, they like the amount of information I put in.

Obviously this is different compared to supply league Observations which are alot more limited (and score based).

So my question is in two parts:
To referees: the more information and game-based references the better? Or would you rather short, straight to the point paragraphs?

Observers: what's your average length of report for 7-6-5?

 

[es1]

there's loads to consider...

the shorter / more concise the better for me...but within that it also needs to be as detailed as needed to justify the mark and provide any required development / guidance.

i've had a 9 page assessment before which was horrific (way too much detail and the key developments were easily lost) and a 1 page assessment which was as detailed as it needed to be for the game / my performance.

not particularly helpful i'm sure!

 

[JamesL]

@DB I take more from a debrief than I do the report.
Has always been the case. Nothing irks me more than getting advice in a report that wasn't discussed in the debrief.

I too have had reports where things were embellished or things added and again it's not really helpful, but I think is a symptom of the marking system in that if you have a game that you control well to the point nothing happens its difficult to score highly.

In answer to your question, straight to the point I think, so long as you get the timed examples, demonstrating the strengths and highlighting development should suffice.

So for me, this is what was good, why it was good and when it happened.
And then this is a development, why, when it happened and how to improve/counteract in future.

I have taken up observing this season, but as yet haven't had an opportunity to observe/mentor as I have taken uncovered grassroots games to referee instead and the one obs I was meant to do I ended up reffing the game as the ref had to come off due to injury.

 

[GraemeS]

I would think what most referees will focus on is first the score and second, the strengths/development points. As long as the detail you're going into is supporting evidence/advice for the above sections, that all sounds really helpful.

I would just be wary of adding unnecessary fluff, or details regarding incidents that didn't result in a development point. Even supporting evidence for strengths should be kept pretty brief:
"In the 12th minute, red 6 did X, you correctly responded by doing Y, displaying good application of law/match control" or
"Your use of advantage throughout was good, as shown by the promising attacks created by red after careless fouls in the 6th and 48th minute, and the goal scored by blue in the 58th minute". 1 or 2 lines on a strength tells them to keep doing what they're doing. Any more and you run the risk of making them over-analyse their strengths.

If there's something you think can be improved on but isn't worth a development point, mention it in the debrief (and perhaps even the covering email), but leave it out of the report completely. The referee doesn't need a detailed timeline of all the events that occurred, your job is to highlight the important ones and filter out the rest.

 

[Jtpetherick1]

So this is a question to gauge opinions on Observations.

With my job in the Military, I'm used to writing reports. And having been trained to a particularly high standard in Quality Assurance, I'm quite meticulous in my approach.

I take that into my Observation Reports aswell.

When I was going through levels 7-5, I found that some observer reports were good. But I also found some were pretty poor in the sense that I didn't get anything from them. One of the ones I received once was literally two paragraphs long... The observer appeared in the second half and then left midway through but gave me some good words from incidents from the first half which which never even happened.I felt let down back then because I wanted an in-depth assessment of what I'd displayed, with plenty of development points to enable me to progress.

I've been observing for a few seasons now and I've found that when I go and talk to referees (7-5), they also want a good, solid and in depth report.

My observation forms for 7-6 and 7-5 are often around 4-5 pages long (in the coloured format). All with plenty of timing-based information, examples. In the bottom, if I've picked someone up for free kick positioning, I will add pictures from Practical Guidance (LOTG) and as all my Observations are done electronically, I sometimes send hyperlinks to demonstration videos. On follow ups with the referees that I observe, they like the amount of information I put in.

Obviously this is different compared to supply league Observations which are alot more limited (and score based).

So my question is in two parts:
To referees: the more information and game-based references the better? Or would you rather short, straight to the point paragraphs?

Observers: what's your average length of report for 7-6-5?

I've never observed a referee but when I've observed lessons in schools I always ask 'what is the point?' Put yourself in the shoes of the recipient and ask yourself 'what is the point of this line?' 'How can it be of benefit?' 'What can they take from it?' If you're writing for writings' sake and you can't imagine them reading it then bin it. You're wasting your time and theirs!

Write the report you'd need - if not always want - to read.

 

[DB]

Thanks for the feedback gents.

I've always been one where I like my performance to be looked at meticulously. So, I would rather more areas to develop as can be identified in that game than strengths - I know what my strengths are but it's often harder to see our true weaknesses.

James is spot on with the debriefs. I'd much rather have that too however, I'm always conscience of how long I sit with the ref for. If they've had a tough game, they don't want someone who's not been in the game picking up faults and saying what they could have done better.

Before I go into the debrief, directly after the whistle I start to write up my identified strength/development points - I refer to my notes and then once the referee has calmed down/showered/changed, I'll sit and have a chat for no longer than 10 minutes. We will just talk about the game, I'd ask for opinions etc and try to pull out the development points/strengths with questions, so that the referee identifies what I've written, as opposed to me telling him/her. It usually works quite well. I don't cover a great deal of the game in the Observations. Timed occurances, what the referee did and what could be done differently etc. One thing I learnt straight away was to be informative on a few incidents than vague on many.

When I said 4-5 pages, that includes the normal format - I've just copied my text from Saturdays report Into word and it's a paragraph over A4. Plenty to note and I feel, not too much. One page was an extract from LOTG and a video clip.

I've now done three observations at Supply League Level to get the required competency, however I actually much prefer being out with the 7/6/5's.

I've purchased a VEO camera for the
League and Club that I run. It's something I'm considering using for Observations (if the referee wants it). I don't think it's been done before (obviously I wouldn't look at the highlights before I've written the report).

 

[bester]

There's nothing wrong with giving the referee advice outside of what's written in the report, just ask the referee if he wants it before potentially wasting your time on it. Some observers will say give them a ring if you want to discuss further.

 

[DB]

There's nothing wrong with giving the referee advice outside of what's written in the report, just ask the referee if he wants it before potentially wasting your time on it. Some observers will say give them a ring if you want to discuss further.

Always the last line on the report that

 

[Kes]

At Levels 7-6 and 6-5 respectively, the criteria are pretty basic.
If you're going to annotate somebody as "below standard" in any of the required competencies, then clearly, you're going to have to elaborate a bit in your narrative in order to allude to the Development Point to which it applies. This gives the referee something to work with for their next game/observation.

If you're happy that they're "standard expected" then there's simply no need to draft "War & Peace" Dave. Even if they're "well above" then they and the promotion panel don't really need to know the minute detail of why and how.

Remember, it's an observation (what you saw take place) in order to effectively tick the competency boxes on their behalf. It's those competencies that are the ultimate "judge" not your own individual perspective in words.

Like you, I'm military and I was taught to observe by the Army FA. One of the major reclarification points of every annual refresher training event I've attended has always been "don't waffle, keep it concise, and relevant to the criteria involved".

For me, less is more.

(Bloody matelots ) ...

 

[one]

If the referee gets the same feedback from a short and concise report as the detailed and broad, obviously the former is better. No time lost writing or reading with lower risk of confusing the referee. However there is always the danger of the referee missing a point the observer trying to make.

It all depends on communications skills of the observer and comprehension skills of the referee and of course the complexity of the incident being described. Where in one case the former has a better outcome, in another case the latter.

The are also games with numerous KMI's and other incidents needing longer reports.

 

[DB]

Sometimes, we just can't help ourselves eh Hope you're well Kes

 

[Kes]

Observers: what's your average length of report for 7-6-5?

Never more than .75 of a sheet of A4.

 

[Big Cat]

7-to-6 I learnt was just a box ticking exercise
No need for advanced insight and instruction for an entry-level test

I've had two 6-to-5 observations and the observer paid a bit more attention to the actual art of refereeing, which is what I'd expect

A Driving Instructor wouldn't appraise 'hand-brake turns' at the end of the student's first lesson, so I'd expect the same approach with Observations

 

[DB]

That would be a pretty cool driving instructor

 

[RustyRef]

I dismay when I see reports that are really short and just a few lines of text. I've seen a couple that have nothing at all except the strengths and development boxes being filled in. Equally though I don't think they should be too long, there needs to be a balance in my opinion. The FA clearly think the same, as on the 5 to 4 form it has been restricted so that the referee cannot enter more than 400 characters against each competency.

If I'm identifying a strength I always refer to at least one timed match incident when they demonstrated this. If I've identified a development area I will again refer to timed examples and give advice as to how they can improve in this area. Technically these times examples are only needed at 5 to 4 and above, but I do it at lower levels as I think it helps the referee to identify the incident in the game. Typically my reports will cover 1.5 to 2 pages for 7 to 6 and 2 to 3 pages for 6 to 5.

 

[DB]

I dismay when I see reports that are really short and just a few lines of text. I've seen a couple that have nothing at all except the strengths and development boxes being filled in. Equally though I don't think they should be too long, there needs to be a balance in my opinion. The FA clearly think the same, as on the 5 to 4 form it has been restricted so that the referee cannot enter more than 400 characters against each competency.

If I'm identifying a strength I always refer to at least one timed match incident when they demonstrated this. If I've identified a development area I will again refer to timed examples and give advice as to how they can improve in this area. Technically these times examples are only needed at 5 to 4 and above, but I do it at lower levels as I think it helps the referee to identify the incident in the game. Typically my reports will cover 1.5 to 2 pages for 7 to 6 and 2 to 3 pages for 6 to 5.

That's exactly how I look at it aswell. I had a look through my old observations today as I was intrigued. There was a real mix of lengths depth of detail. It's certainly interesting getting the viewpoints of other Observers so thank you.

I must admit, I do find the Supply League form nice and easy in terms of what we look for, what our criteria is... However, I used to think 'bloody hell, that [level 4] only got a 71-72 for that game. Why so low? He was bloody brilliant'. It was only when I actually started using that form did I appreciate, actually, 72 is difficult to achieve in a nothing game!

I wanted to push on and get my level 4 this season, however because I enjoy observing, I couldn't observe at Supply League Level if I was refereeing at the same level

 

[lincs22]

At supply league level, the objective to try and find 1 or 2 points which can add a fraction of a mark. Targeted reports are the best.

At 7-6 and 6-5, too much comment also loses the focus of the report. It is better to be brief, emphasising the most serious/important rather than listing ever development point

The report is to aid the referee and should not be seen as full report if their match. They will have coaches who also assist them with other matters

 

[JamesL]

That's exactly how I look at it aswell. I had a look through my old observations today as I was intrigued. There was a real mix of lengths depth of detail. It's certainly interesting getting the viewpoints of other Observers so thank you.

I must admit, I do find the Supply League form nice and easy in terms of what we look for, what our criteria is... However, I used to think 'bloody hell, that [level 4] only got a 71-72 for that game. Why so low? He was bloody brilliant'. It was only when I actually started using that form did I appreciate, actually, 72 is difficult to achieve in a nothing game!

I wanted to push on and get my level 4 this season, however because I enjoy observing, I couldn't observe at Supply League Level if I was refereeing at the same level

@DB you said above you preferred observing 7s6s5s. So nothing stopping you doing the level 4 mate. You'll get it easy. Only issue is finding the time to. Observe at all alongside a promotion
I haven't been out of county all season, so travel times haven't been an issue which I think puts some off going for round here.

 

[lincs22]

@DB you said above you preferred observing 7s6s5s. So nothing stopping you doing the level 4 mate. You'll get it easy. Only issue is finding the time to. Observe at all alongside a promotion
I haven't been out of county all season, so travel times haven't been an issue which I think puts some off going for round here.

But as an active referee, you cannot observe at L4 if you are at L4 refereeing

 

[JamesL]

But as an active referee, you cannot observe at L4 if you are at L4 refereeing

I know that but my point is in response to this:

I've now done three observations at Supply League Level to get the required competency, however I actually much prefer being out with the 7/6/5's.

If prefers doing the 7-5s then being a 4 isn't a problem.