A&H

LAw question non deliberate Hand ball

Not exactly the same. The careless trip is the result of a deliberate calculation, the handball is purely the result of a non-deliberate action.
I disagree. Whilst 'unnatural position' handballs are (now by definition) deemed to be non deliberate, the reason that they are penalised is that they are seen to be the result of a choice by the defender to put their arm in that unnatural position. Players are allowed to have their arms in all manner of natural positions ... therefore there is an element of calculation when they end up in an unnatural one.
 
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I disagree. Whilst 'unnatural position' handballs are (now by definition) deemed to be non deliberate, the reason that they are penalised is that they are seen to be the result of a choice by the defender to put their arm in that unnatural position. Players are allowed to have their arms in all manner of natural positions ... therefore there is an element of calculation when they end up in an unnatural one.
But then it wouldn't be "the result of a player attempting to play fairly". If the "unnaturally bigger" wording involves "an element of calculation" then that's not "non deliberate" and not playing fairly.

I'm not trying to be funny, but that explanation "the result of a player attempting to play fairly" introduces a concept of a player being sent off for trying to play fairly.
 
But then it wouldn't be "the result of a player attempting to play fairly". If the "unnaturally bigger" wording involves "an element of calculation" then that's not "non deliberate" and not playing fairly.

I'm not trying to be funny, but that explanation "the result of a player attempting to play fairly" introduces a concept of a player being sent off for trying to play fairly.
Ok, I actually think we're very close on this one! In reality, the whole concept of 'trying to play fairly' is probably unhelpful and we should instead talk about 'footballing actions' and 'non-footballing actions'.

For DOGSO outside the penalty area, we simply send off for any offence, whether footballing action or not. Deliberate trip, accidental trip, deliberate handball, unnatural position handball ... all of these are treated equally and result in a red card, not because of the intent but because of the outcome (the denial of the OGSO). You can certainly argue that it feels harsh on the defender to penalise the two footballing actions (accidental trip / unnatural position handball) the same way as if they'd punched someone but it seems eminently fair to the attacker who's been denied his moment of glory! At least the punching would typically result in more significant post game sanctions :)

For DOGSO inside the penalty area, we send off for the non footballing actions (deliberate handball, holding, pushing etc) and caution for the footballing actions (unnatural position handball, foul challenge for the ball).
 
But then it wouldn't be "the result of a player attempting to play fairly". If the "unnaturally bigger" wording involves "an element of calculation" then that's not "non deliberate" and not playing fairly.

I'm not trying to be funny, but that explanation "the result of a player attempting to play fairly" introduces a concept of a player being sent off for trying to play fairly.
Let's think about this in non handball offences outside of the penalty area. If a defender "attempts" to play fairly (attempt to play the ball with foot) but still commits a DOGSO offence, say careless kicking, outside the PA, they are sent off. Nothing new here.

Now for handling, a deliberate handball is considered not a fair attempt to play the ball. A non-deliberate handball is considered a fair attempt to play the ball. Applying the same existing concept:
If a defender "attempts" to play fairly (non-deliberate handball) but still commits a DOGSO offence outside the PA, they are sent off. This is not a new concept but a new change to align with an existing concept.

I must add, the send off is less about punishing the defender since he attempted to play the ball fairly. It's more about rebalancing the game as the attackers lost out on a very likely goal due to an offence by defenders.
 
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I have been thinking about this deliberate / not deliberate handball definitions. I know there are implied definitions in law 12 but how would I explain it to a new referee as a mentor. I have come up with this. Not sure how good it is but here we go.

A deliberate handball offence is when players use their hand to touch the ball.
A non deliberate handball offence is when the ball hits a player's hand, but the player has not taken sufficient due care to avoid the ball to hand contact.
 
Ok, I actually think we're very close on this one! In reality, the whole concept of 'trying to play fairly' is probably unhelpful and we should instead talk about 'footballing actions' and 'non-footballing actions'.

For DOGSO outside the penalty area, we simply send off for any offence, whether footballing action or not. Deliberate trip, accidental trip, deliberate handball, unnatural position handball ... all of these are treated equally and result in a red card, not because of the intent but because of the outcome (the denial of the OGSO). You can certainly argue that it feels harsh on the defender to penalise the two footballing actions (accidental trip / unnatural position handball) the same way as if they'd punched someone but it seems eminently fair to the attacker who's been denied his moment of glory! At least the punching would typically result in more significant post game sanctions :)

For DOGSO inside the penalty area, we send off for the non footballing actions (deliberate handball, holding, pushing etc) and caution for the footballing actions (unnatural position handball, foul challenge for the ball).
I like that, but think how many one on ones are OGSOs but don't result in a goal, especially at lower levels. A sending off, especially early in a game, for an accidental handball "when trying to play fairly" really does not shout "spirit of the game".

Frankly, if a defender is running when committing the "offence", the fact that the ball is in the air when it hits the hand must mean that the attacker has much less "likelihood of gaining control of the ball". [Get-out #54b]

 
I like that, but think how many one on ones are OGSOs but don't result in a goal, especially at lower levels. A sending off, especially early in a game, for an accidental handball "when trying to play fairly" really does not shout "spirit of the game".

Frankly, if a defender is running when committing the "offence", the fact that the ball is in the air when it hits the hand must mean that the attacker has much less "likelihood of gaining control of the ball". [Get-out #54b]

And within your question, you have your eminently practical answer! If you, as the referee, believe that (as a result of the skill level of the players) the opportunity is 'just' a GSO rather than an OGSO, you have the justification you desire for giving an SPA YC instead. And I totally agree that taking into account the likelihood of the attacker gaining control is a key driver of the decision.

Last season, I sent off a defender for a careless trip that was without doubt accidental. I felt bad about it, I showed empathy but it was 100% a DOGSO and I wouldn't have been doing my job if I'd chosen another route. The key point is that this decision is no different to if I'd done the same for an unnatural position handball .. the concept is the same. Both feel a little harsh on the defender. But 'just' a FK and YC would feel equally harsh to an attacker clearly denied an obvious goal scoring opportunity
 
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