Interesting U13 experience

[JBeil]

So today in a county cup game, a team only had ten players - fine, such is life in many leagues. They're being thrashed, partly because of the extra player, but also because they're a bit pants, but ho hum. Home coach is screaming at his players and is surprised they're not motivated. First penalty, simple foul tackle, takes the foot rather than the ball, only two complaints which I shrug off as annoyed young boys.

Second half, the game is effectively over, and the match is getting much angrier. One lad from the home side physically pushed someone into the ground, apparently in response to a comment made towards him about his figure - fine, regular yellow and a talking to, let's remember it's a game, carry on.

On the away side losing by a cricket score, two players decide they've had enough of this, and begin trying to make lots of foul tackles - running in, high speed, but the opponents are good enough that they can play around, and every time I wave advantage they nearly score or actually score. I get one a yellow for a foul tackle which seems to stop him, but the other lad (captain!) keeps at it. I warn him that if he continues, cards will have to come out, and he responds in the way you might expect a twelve-year-old to respond to a referee telling him something he doesn't want to know. I tell myself I've warned him, what happens next is up to him, and we carry on.

Home team attack, captain makes another high-speed tackle, gets played around and the same player keeps going. He's through on goal by the touchline, and the captain takes off the ground, and jams both studs into the back of away's knees.

Easiest red card I think I'll ever give, but it does raise a few questions:

1. Was I being too lenient in allowing the initial tackles to just be waved on? I couldn't have given a free kick simply because the advantage was so great each time, but if I had awarded a yellow for players steaming in at high speed, still on their feet, but clearly trying to put something on the other player, I'd have had a lot of stick from the coaches/players/crowd. That said, it might have prevented the later incident, which fortunately left no injuries!
2. Could I have spoken to the coach and told him, in different terms, 'your number so-and-so is being a prat, can you speak to him before I have to card him?' Based on how they spoke to each other at the end I doubt either coach or player have much respect for the other, so maybe this was a loser, but should I be asking coaches to manage their players? After all, that's part of the job we sign up for!
3. Does this suggest maybe I need to tighten up how closely I follow the strict letter of the LotG at these younger games?
4. There was a call for a 'high boot' at one point - I felt that the player in question was safe enough in playing for the ball as the goalkeeper was some distance away, but the CAR (who had been told not to flag for fouls at the start!) started waving, and then the coaches started off, and I stuck with the initial decision which was to play on - I'd warned the CAR specifically not to give fouls precisely because it causes that sort of chaos, but is there a best way to handle that situation? The lad had been on his phone most of the game and had missed some pretty clear offside decisions (one of which produced a goal which I then had to go over and clarify with him, apparently he had seen it and not bothered to give a flag until I spoke to him!), but I wasn't going to chuck a CAR for being a bit pants as if we all did that there'd be no club linesmen in the country! Is there a 'best' way to deal with that? Fortunately it wasn't a match-altering decision, but in a closer game it could have been.

Just thought I'd share an interesting match and maybe some pearls of wisdom will emerge!

 

[Anubis]

So today in a county cup game, a team only had ten players - fine, such is life in many leagues. They're being thrashed, partly because of the extra player, but also because they're a bit pants, but ho hum. Home coach is screaming at his players and is surprised they're not motivated. First penalty, simple foul tackle, takes the foot rather than the ball, only two complaints which I shrug off as annoyed young boys.

Second half, the game is effectively over, and the match is getting much angrier. One lad from the home side physically pushed someone into the ground, apparently in response to a comment made towards him about his figure - fine, regular yellow and a talking to, let's remember it's a game, carry on.

On the away side losing by a cricket score, two players decide they've had enough of this, and begin trying to make lots of foul tackles - running in, high speed, but the opponents are good enough that they can play around, and every time I wave advantage they nearly score or actually score. I get one a yellow for a foul tackle which seems to stop him, but the other lad (captain!) keeps at it. I warn him that if he continues, cards will have to come out, and he responds in the way you might expect a twelve-year-old to respond to a referee telling him something he doesn't want to know. I tell myself I've warned him, what happens next is up to him, and we carry on.

Home team attack, captain makes another high-speed tackle, gets played around and the same player keeps going. He's through on goal by the touchline, and the captain takes off the ground, and jams both studs into the back of away's knees.

Easiest red card I think I'll ever give, but it does raise a few questions:

1. Was I being too lenient in allowing the initial tackles to just be waved on? I couldn't have given a free kick simply because the advantage was so great each time, but if I had awarded a yellow for players steaming in at high speed, still on their feet, but clearly trying to put something on the other player, I'd have had a lot of stick from the coaches/players/crowd. That said, it might have prevented the later incident, which fortunately left no injuries!
2. Could I have spoken to the coach and told him, in different terms, 'your number so-and-so is being a prat, can you speak to him before I have to card him?' Based on how they spoke to each other at the end I doubt either coach or player have much respect for the other, so maybe this was a loser, but should I be asking coaches to manage their players? After all, that's part of the job we sign up for!
3. Does this suggest maybe I need to tighten up how closely I follow the strict letter of the LotG at these younger games?
4. There was a call for a 'high boot' at one point - I felt that the player in question was safe enough in playing for the ball as the goalkeeper was some distance away, but the CAR (who had been told not to flag for fouls at the start!) started waving, and then the coaches started off, and I stuck with the initial decision which was to play on - I'd warned the CAR specifically not to give fouls precisely because it causes that sort of chaos, but is there a best way to handle that situation? The lad had been on his phone most of the game and had missed some pretty clear offside decisions (one of which produced a goal which I then had to go over and clarify with him, apparently he had seen it and not bothered to give a flag until I spoke to him!), but I wasn't going to chuck a CAR for being a bit pants as if we all did that there'd be no club linesmen in the country! Is there a 'best' way to deal with that? Fortunately it wasn't a match-altering decision, but in a closer game it could have been.

Just thought I'd share an interesting match and maybe some pearls of wisdom will emerge!

Bear in mind we will never know what could have happened.
Based on what you type though I think you have summed it up yourself .
advantage is a match control tool.
If the other team are winning as easy as they were, the result is no longer a concern, but, avoiding being injured by the opponent is. So you need swing the focus from winning the game, to seeing out a game they have won bar the final whistle, safely. If that means denying them an advantage, in exchange for killing the game stone dead, cautioning opponent, slowing game down and sending out your message that you are understand the frustration but you will not tolerate indiscipline

everyone will have their own take but imo am not interested in telling a coach anything, they are watching the same game as you, they can see who is a menace, who is, drawing attention to themself etc
If whats going on is obvious, and the coach, who has his own opportunities to manage it, wont, then absolutely as referee you will.

re CARs....next!

 

[Gamespoiler]

Could you not play advantage, but make it clear you are coming back to deal with the challenge and then book the player after the game has stopped?

Re CAR, in this neck of the woods at every age inc open age the CAR does in and outs only. Yep we call offsides as we see it and some will be wrong but that's just the way it is

 

[GraemeS]

Sounds like a tricky game! With respect to your specific questions:

1. Advantage is a privilege, not a guaranteed part of the game. Given the way you've described the game, it sounds like it might have been appropriate to raise the bar on what constitutes an advantage and give the FK in most situations, barring the clearest of clear goal scoring opportunities. Slow the game down and try to take some heat out.
It's also worth noting that playing advantage only requires downgrading the card if you were going to give it for SPA or DOGSO. The fouls you describe sound more like reckless tackles - which you would be more than entitled to caution for at the next break in play regardless of the advantage. Or at the very least, stop play and give the player in question a public bollocking. If a player is pushing the line, the worst thing you can do it just ignore it - it's important that you take visible action of some sort, to make it clear they risk sanctions if they do it again.

2. At OA, absolutely not. Coaches are for small talk/team sheets pre-match and payment at the end of the match. At youth - maaybe, if you have the sense the coach would be helpful. It doesn't sound like that was the case here, so I'd be sticking to the disciplinary powers in the LOTG rather than trying to get clever.

3. There's always going to be a degree of guesswork about what's "expected" at various youth levels. My rule of thumb is that a neutral appointed referee is there to apply the laws - if you feel like you can loosen up then in some situations that's fine, but the default expectation should always be that you'll run it by the book.

4. Club AR's following their own defence is the answer to a lot of these problems - if they switch off, it's their own team that loses out, if they try to fiddle throw-ins then it's only creating a defensive throw rather than an attack. And if he decides to stick his nose into misconduct then there's not much you can do apart from politely shut him down and get him to go back to his line. It's your call to make and that's the end of it.

 

[Keeday]

If the games already won then consider risk vs reward. Playing the advantage and turning 6-0 to 7-0 or keeping a lid on things, killing the game and retaining match control is better and reduces the risk of players getting hurt.

 

[RobOda]

but if I had awarded a yellow for players steaming in at high speed, still on their feet, but clearly trying to put something on the other player, I'd have had a lot of stick from the coaches/players/crowd.

Why not?

I know they've changed it in regards to SPA offences, but if you think the challenges are reckless or borderline, get the advantage and then go back and put his name in the book.

Remember, sometimes the correct decision will get you a ton of stick. That's part of refereeing. If an unpopular yellow card stops a potential future red, then hey, that's a benefit IMO. Of course, sometimes we benefit massively from hindsight here.

Could I have spoken to the coach and told him, in different terms, 'your number so-and-so is being a prat, can you speak to him before I have to card him?'

I've never gone that route, but to be fair, I think the coaches tend to be similar to the players. So, if a player was being an idiot, and I went to the coach, I'd half expect the coach to be congratulating his player and calling me an idiot...

Is there a 'best' way to deal with that?

If he's ignoring your instructions, I would reiterate the instructions to him right there and then. And if he does it again, get rid of him. By all accounts he didn't seem that fussed about his duties, so I'd report him? I can't really offer much advice on this aspect as my CAR's are restricted to ball in/out only.

 

[socal lurker]

This sounds like a classic example of a game where as a ref it is wise to take air out of the game. Slow down restarts. Call the marginal fouls. Caution the light yellow fouls. Stop using advantage. (Sometimes it’s ”unless a team will prob ably score,“ but when the score is completely out of hand already, the extra goal doesn’t matter and just control the game as it’s really the only thing important at that point.) That goes for the touchlines, too—lower the standard for a talking to and a caution.

All that said, for this age level consider whether your bar is too generous on what a foul is. With boys this age, I tend to start the game pretty tigh, especially in the mid field, a d loosen up once (if!) they demonstrate they intend to play soccer instead of be knucklehead. But always watchful as to whether to tighten up again as behavior warrants.

 

[Darren83]

You cant control some player 2 footing at knee height from behind. The Red card is warranted for this regardless of age or level. You gave them a chance to not make stupid challenges and they chose not to listen

 

[Anubis]

You cant control some player 2 footing at knee height from behind. The Red card is warranted for this regardless of age or level. You gave them a chance to not make stupid challenges and they chose not to listen

No, you cant control someones actions, but, you can influence it

If they see unacceptable challenges being punished, game stopped, cautioned, then, you hope thats proactive and sinks in that such challenges are not ok
If they see a free for all where anything goes, play goes on, and its all ok because the other team score anyway, then its you as referee giving them that impression.

thats where the management of the game differs from just dealing with this guys ridiculous tackle.

not everything will ever be fully in our control, on that basis, the next best thing is to at least try

 

[PinnerPaul]

Slightly off piste - but could you have called his reaction to your warnings dissent and given him 10 minutes to calm down in the sin bin?