Handball or not handball
- Thread starter JA77
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socal lurker
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Not enough information. If, in the opinion of the referee the handling was deliberate OR the arm was in an unnatural position, then it is a handball. as described, the big question is likely going to be whether the ref considers the arm to be in an unnatural position.
Russell Jones
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Fundamentally, all you need to consider now (assuming it actually hits the relevant part of the hand / arm but there was no deliberate choice by the player to handball it) is whether the hand / arm was in a NATURAL position for the body movement that the player was making. For example, when you run or jump, your arms naturally come away from your body in certain ways .. this is now fine. Whereas when you're standing still, your arms are naturally by your side rather than away from your body.
On the latter point, it's really time for defenders to stop putting their hands behind their backs to avoid them getting hit by the ball. This should no longer be necessary (as hands by your side is fine) and could even (by refs much harsher than myself!) be now considered to be an unnatural place for the hands to be
On the latter point, it's really time for defenders to stop putting their hands behind their backs to avoid them getting hit by the ball. This should no longer be necessary (as hands by your side is fine) and could even (by refs much harsher than myself!) be now considered to be an unnatural place for the hands to be
Anubis
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Fundamentally, all you need to consider now (assuming it actually hits the relevant part of the hand / arm but there was no deliberate choice by the player to handball it) is whether the hand / arm was in a NATURAL position for the body movement that the player was making. For example, when you run or jump, your arms naturally come away from your body in certain ways .. this is now fine. Whereas when you're standing still, your arms are naturally by your side rather than away from your body.
On the latter point, it's really time for defenders to stop putting their hands behind their backs to avoid them getting hit by the ball. This should no longer be necessary (as hands by your side is fine) and could even (by refs much harsher than myself!) be now considered to be an unnatural place for the hands to be
Thats an excellent point and one i had never considered
Defenders putting their hands behind their back
not sure how well awarding a pk would go down, on the basis although they did everything they could to avoid the ball hitting their hands, because the hands were behind the back its unatural.
socal lurker
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This has been one of the issues IFAB was trying to address in the tinkering that they have been doing. I will say that any ref who considered the hands behind the back "unnatural" in the meaning of Law 12 needs a long seminar in common sense and SOTG. That said, i'm not convinced it will stop because any time the ball hits the arm, the defender risks the R thinking it was "too far" from the body and thus making the defender unnaturally bigger. This is just a really, really challenging place to draw lines in real time on the field.On the latter point, it's really time for defenders to stop putting their hands behind their backs to avoid them getting hit by the ball. This should no longer be necessary (as hands by your side is fine) and could even (by refs much harsher than myself!) be now considered to be an unnatural place for the hands to be
Russell Jones
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I actually agree with you. It's obviously an 'unnatural' position per se but as it's not one that will tend to make the body profile materially bigger it's unlikely to be penalised. For what it's worth though, the 'nightmare' scenario I'm envisaging is one where the defender puts hands behind their back and then turns sideways as the shot or cross is struck. Ball hits the hand and it wouldn't have done if they had done the natural thing of having arms by their sides ..... cue the involvement of VAR with loud trumpets and flashing lights
I'm hoping that as less and less handballs are given with arms by the side, defenders will simply stop the practice of putting their arms behind them, partly because it looks stupid and partly because it inhibits their ability to focus on properly defending!
Good discussion. As an additional anecdote I had a fun discussion with a player yesterday who said that as the ball hit someone's hand (close to the body and accidental) then it had to be a FK because of the 'Premiership rules'...
To be fair, when I explained about natural position and accidental contact (and that the laws are the laws, there aren't special ones for the PL - a discussion point in itself, I know
) they eventually accepted the (non) decision - but another insight into what we are dealing with in terms of knowledge and application.
To be fair, when I explained about natural position and accidental contact (and that the laws are the laws, there aren't special ones for the PL - a discussion point in itself, I know
) they eventually accepted the (non) decision - but another insight into what we are dealing with in terms of knowledge and application.socal lurker
RefChat Addict
(and that the laws are the laws, there aren't special ones for the PL - a discussion point in itself, I know
This unfortunately isn't true in the US, which can create extra challenges for us. While club and recreational soccer is based on the LOTG, neither High School nor college soccer in the US use the LOTG--they each issue their own soccer rules (which are largely, but not entirely, harmonious with the LOTG). So in addition to dealing with general myths and outdated Laws/interpretations, we get to deal with people who "know" things that from those two other rule sets (and often from outdated versions of those rule sets).