Game tonight, a couple of firsts for me and some abuse!

[NewRefBrendan]

U18s Reds (home) vs. Yellows (away)… fast start, an early goal each, then in 23’ yellow attacker and red defender running towards goal, red defender only very marginally goalside of attacker heads ball into the hands of GK who is out of the box… for me, if gk doesn’t catch the ball, yellow attacker has a GSO, so I send off the GK. The red bench going beserk (asst man is the father) first and final warning. 5 mins later I caution him for dissent as he’s still chuntering away.

A supporters voice who I recognised from being towards the corner flag appeared by the tunnel at half time to call me “a f**king clown”. I’ve developed a thick skin through my line of work so shrugged it off, but I’ve never had that level of abuse before from a spectator/parent…

I caution a player in the 2nd half, and the same voice tells the player “don’t worry, he’s on commission from the FA, he’s probably still on furlough and needs the money” It took all of my powers not to say anything.

My question on the parent is would I have been within my rights to get the home manager to deal with the chap dishing out the abuse? Or is it a suck it up situation? It was a pay admission on the door, not that that gives somebody the right to abuse the MO’s!!

The game finished 4-3, 2YC 1RC and a bench YC, The outfield player who went in goal was brilliant, the losing away manager went out of his way to commend the lad, so at least the abuseraise ratio balanced out!!!

In all seriousness though, with Ref abuse very topical on social media at the minute (isn’t it always?) I thought I’d share my experience from tonight on here, and then park it. I’m on the line there in a couple of weeks so I might turn up in a red nose with some juggling balls

thanks for reading, any thoughts/comments appreciated!

 

[refeire]

First of all I will say well done. It sounds to me like you gave your absolute best and in the face of the worst abuse managed to keep your cool and uphold the laws as best as you saw them. Everyone here has had these types of games and as painful as they are, they are the ones we learn the most from.

Regarding the red card, before reading what you did I asked myself what would I have done. I also said red card for the goalkeeper and DOGSO.

Ideally you'd have removed the abusers in this game, find out if it's something you can do despite the paying and don't hesitate from now, send them .In my (freeview ) games we issue the sanctions we would give to the parents to the coach. We never engage with any parent whatsoever. It may be possible to inform the coaches you want such and such parent gone, if they aren't removed then you'll sanction the coach for the parent's abuse - they'll soon make sure the abuser leaves.

Judge the situation, if the coach has been nasty too there may be merit in giving him a red and telling him to take the parent with him. If the coach has been no issue but there's an idiot among his ranks, work with him and get him to remove the idiot without having to red card the coach and risk control. It is a case by case thing.

Lastly, if you notice one of the coaches is quiet and one is like a caged lion, approach the quiet guy to relay any requests/warnings.

 

[lincs22]

@NewRefBrendan - well done.

For the spectator, I don't think you can get rid of him for that. It was to be sustained or outright abuse, if he was a player, then it would be a YC for what he said. But if he had been F'ing all game and deliberately came round to the tunnel for further abuse, you would be in your rights to get him removed.

I caution a player in the 2nd half, and the same voice tells the player “don’t worry, he’s on commission from the FA, he’s probably still on furlough and needs the money” It took all of my powers not to say anything.

This is the soft abuse which is creeping into the game more. You should have taken action. Two options (both valid):
1. A second YC for dissent and a sin-bin OR
2. A strong warning, involving the Captain. The comment to the Captain, not the player, is "any more comments from him and he goes. Either you sort him out or you are down to 10. Accept no response from anybody, just leave and arrange for the match to re-start. It then becomes the Captain's responsibility to manage the player.

The third option (and not for an inexperienced referee is "If I was on commission, I would send you off now and get the commission at the end of the month!"

 

[Anubis]

Red card sounds right.

The next part is awkward, For what sounds morally correct or decent, you cannot sanctiom the coach for the comments of the spectator here
The " I will pick on you cos you are head coach" applies when you are unsure which registered coach/tech aree personnel have misbehaved
You do not have authority to sanctiom the coach for the misbehaviour of a random, only the authority to sanction him for fellow registered officials

the situation you found yoursslf in is no diff to the professional game, someone in the crowd has made derisory comments re a match official.
Not quite sure we see Mike Dean approach Steve Bruce to ask Bruce to remove the guy in row H seat 11 because he shouted " ref your a fecking clown"

The facility in question are the ones responsible for ejecting patrons. You would be entitled to enlist their help, or raise your concerns with them

although on a free for all public park, yes, you can enlist the coach for assistance.

When someone pays into a facility, they are opening a contract with the facility, that they will behave and adhere to the facility regulations, and if they dont, it is for the other party ( the facility ) to deal with.
The referee *sadly* can raise concerns of course, but has no power of removal

over riding factor is, you cannot sanction the coach for the parents behaviour

 

[NewRefBrendan]

The next part is awkward, For what sounds morally correct or decent, you cannot sanctiom the coach for the comments of the spectator here
The " I will pick on you cos you are head coach" applies when you are unsure which registered coach/tech aree personnel have misbehaved
You do not have authority to sanctiom the coach for the misbehaviour of a random, only the authority to sanction him for fellow registered officials

the situation you found yoursslf in is no diff to the professional game, someone in the crowd has made derisory comments re a match official.
Not quite sure we see Mike Dean approach Steve Bruce to ask Bruce to remove the guy in row H seat 11 because he shouted " ref your a fecking clown"

The facility in question are the ones responsible for ejecting patrons. You would be entitled to enlist their help, or raise your concerns with them

although on a free for all public park, yes, you can enlist the coach for assistance.

When someone pays into a facility, they are opening a contract with the facility, that they will behave and adhere to the facility regulations, and if they dont, it is for the other party ( the facility ) to deal with.
The referee *sadly* can raise concerns of course, but has no power of removal

over riding factor is, you cannot sanction the coach for the parents behaviour

Hi @Anubis,

thank you for taking the time to read and comment your thoughts.

I know that you cannot sanction the coach for the behaviour of a parent, but at age-group football where I am there is the expectation that they can/should help the R if there are any issues relating to parent behaviour.

Also I totally disagree with the comparison to Steve Bruce and Mike Dean, but again I appreciate you taking the time to read my post and comment your thoughts

 

[Anubis]

Hi @Anubis,

thank you for taking the time to read and comment your thoughts.

I know that you cannot sanction the coach for the behaviour of a parent, but at age-group football where I am there is the expectation that they can/should help the R if there are any issues relating to parent behaviour.

Also I totally disagree with the comparison to Steve Bruce and Mike Dean, but again I appreciate you taking the time to read my post and comment your thoughts

it was the poster below you who indicated sanctioning the coach, thus I never copied in your original post.
it was not directed to you

Good luck removing paying spectators from a facility charging entry.
Even should said spectator launch into the most hatred racial/homophobic wardance, nevermind sly referee remarks, its for the facility to remove him * which hopefully would happen without referee intervention*
even the coach, could attempt to reason with the parent and ask him to leave, he cannot however enforce this ( unless the coach is legally responsible for the facilty)
I have provided the legality in black and white terms but feel free to dismiss that out of hand and do your own thing

 

[JamesL]

U18s Reds (home) vs. Yellows (away)… fast start, an early goal each, then in 23’ yellow attacker and red defender running towards goal, red defender only very marginally goalside of attacker heads ball into the hands of GK who is out of the box… for me, if gk doesn’t catch the ball, yellow attacker has a GSO, so I send off the GK. The red bench going beserk (asst man is the father) first and final warning. 5 mins later I caution him for dissent as he’s still chuntering away.

A supporters voice who I recognised from being towards the corner flag appeared by the tunnel at half time to call me “a f**king clown”. I’ve developed a thick skin through my line of work so shrugged it off, but I’ve never had that level of abuse before from a spectator/parent…

I caution a player in the 2nd half, and the same voice tells the player “don’t worry, he’s on commission from the FA, he’s probably still on furlough and needs the money” It took all of my powers not to say anything.

My question on the parent is would I have been within my rights to get the home manager to deal with the chap dishing out the abuse? Or is it a suck it up situation? It was a pay admission on the door, not that that gives somebody the right to abuse the MO’s!!

The game finished 4-3, 2YC 1RC and a bench YC, The outfield player who went in goal was brilliant, the losing away manager went out of his way to commend the lad, so at least the abuseraise ratio balanced out!!!

In all seriousness though, with Ref abuse very topical on social media at the minute (isn’t it always?) I thought I’d share my experience from tonight on here, and then park it. I’m on the line there in a couple of weeks so I might turn up in a red nose with some juggling balls

thanks for reading, any thoughts/comments appreciated!

As it was paying spectators, and youth setup, I am going to guess this is a reasonably decent level of the game, age aside.
Sadly, as you go up through the levels the chance of paying spectators having and providing their opinion on your performance increases dramatically.
Our local area has a fairly active forum where people share their opinions on the games they've been to watch and often on the referee. As you get up to these levels, you have less and less control over who says what, and where. And to a certain extent you need to big enough and ugly enough to be able to ignore it.
In a perfect world, no one would ever remark on the referee's performance, or would be more constructive but that's not the society we live in.
I've lost count of the amount of times been booed off as a team (despite the R having a good game, it will usually be over one decision) and you just have to grin and bare it really. It usually stems from a lack of understanding of law or appreciation how difficult the job is.

To be clear I am not condoning the individuals that commit this kind of abuse, I'm preparing you for what lies ahead.

On your particular incident you have a choice of
1) ignore
2) make home club aware and ask them to deal
3) retort with your own whitty remark (not always advisable).

Final comment regarding the red card.. You said attacker had a GSO, but was it an OGSO?
Did it tick all the boxes, sounds like distance, direction were met, but from your description, location of defenders seems debatable and control, or likelihood of gaining control also. Obviously you had to be there, and I can only go off what is written, and ask you to think about the criteria for a DOGSO and see if it ticked the boxes. You can then self assess that decision from there

 

[Martiju]

I've lost count of the amount of times been booed off as a team (despite the R having a good game, it will usually be over one decision) and you just have to grin and bare it really. It usually stems from a lack of understanding of law or appreciation how difficult the job is.

I agree with everything, but don't bare it - that will just get you more abuse.

 

[JamesL]

I agree with everything, but don't bare it - that will just get you more abuse.

Good point. I'll have a think about that

 

[NewRefBrendan]

As it was paying spectators, and youth setup, I am going to guess this is a reasonably decent level of the game, age aside.
Sadly, as you go up through the levels the chance of paying spectators having and providing their opinion on your performance increases dramatically.
Our local area has a fairly active forum where people share their opinions on the games they've been to watch and often on the referee. As you get up to these levels, you have less and less control over who says what, and where. And to a certain extent you need to big enough and ugly enough to be able to ignore it.
In a perfect world, no one would ever remark on the referee's performance, or would be more constructive but that's not the society we live in.
I've lost count of the amount of times been booed off as a team (despite the R having a good game, it will usually be over one decision) and you just have to grin and bare it really. It usually stems from a lack of understanding of law or appreciation how difficult the job is.

To be clear I am not condoning the individuals that commit this kind of abuse, I'm preparing you for what lies ahead.

On your particular incident you have a choice of
1) ignore
2) make home club aware and ask them to deal
3) retort with your own whitty remark (not always advisable).

Final comment regarding the red card.. You said attacker had a GSO, but was it an OGSO?
Did it tick all the boxes, sounds like distance, direction were met, but from your description, location of defenders seems debatable and control, or likelihood of gaining control also. Obviously you had to be there, and I can only go off what is written, and ask you to think about the criteria for a DOGSO and see if it ticked the boxes. You can then self assess that decision from there

Thanks @JamesL, very useful feedback from you.

I’ve been called far worse than a clown in my line of work, so for me it was easy to brush off, it was more a case of knowing where I stood if there was a next time and the abuse was worse..

With the RC, for me I felt it was an OGSO, the pace at which the ball was headed would’ve taken it very close to the goalmouth had the GK not caught it, and I think the attacker would have got there also. I was fortunate to have a L4 and a L5-4 on my line, and both felt it was the right call.

 

[refeire]

it was the poster below you who indicated sanctioning the coach, thus I never copied in your original post.
it was not directed to you

Good luck removing paying spectators from a facility charging entry.
Even should said spectator launch into the most hatred racial/homophobic wardance, nevermind sly referee remarks, its for the facility to remove him * which hopefully would happen without referee intervention*
even the coach, could attempt to reason with the parent and ask him to leave, he cannot however enforce this ( unless the coach is legally responsible for the facilty)
I have provided the legality in black and white terms but feel free to dismiss that out of hand and do your own thing

I accept asking paying patrons to leave a ground is likely unpractical, hence why I recommended he find out with his league what he can do in such situations. I know for fact in our league we are to sanction coaches for the behavior of the parents of their players, if I write a report detailing touchline abuse the first question they'll ask me is did I speak to/sanction the relevant coach. Most likely it's a league thing and is only practical for park football. It never actually gets to where you have to red card the coach because of it, they'll always have the parent gone before it ever gets to that (unless the coach is as abusive).

It read like the referee here had a torrid night and maybe sustained some damage mentally too, it seems wrong that he has no power because someone paid a fiver on entry. Though I do accept football is struggling at the lower levels and finding a practical solution isn't always easy.

 

[RustyRef]

Unfortunately you have to accept that if you are refereeing at a level where there are paying spectators you may well come in for a bit of stick, and there isn't a great deal you can do about it. It ranges from reasonably good natured banter through to absolutely vile abuse. Trying to do something about it is just going to draw attention to yourself and probably lead to more abuse. I've had a blind man offer me his white stick, too many comments about my lack of hair to remember, through to supporters at a National League South club somehow getting hold of my mobile number during the game and sending me some fairly colourful messages. This is why almost all senior referees have a "fake" online identity on Facebook, Twitter, Instagram, etc, supporters will search for you and they will abuse you online.

The exception is if it crosses a line and branches into racist, sexist, homophobic, etc, language or behaviour. In that case I would have no hesitation in stopping the game and speaking to the home team. You can sell it as "look, this is going to be getting reported but the longer it goes on the worse it is likely to be for you, please try and do something about it". If they work with you then you can put that in your extraordinary incident report and it will probably help them when it comes to sanction. Likewise if they do nothing that goes in the report as well.

Much easier with grass roots games with no spectators. Tell the home team you aren't restarting the game until the person(s) in question are removed, or at least shut up. Doesn't matter if it is a public park, you will get full backing from the FA if they don't co operate and you abandon the game as a result.

 

[refeire]

Is it possible some of these fans pay to enter to simply abuse the ref and have a rowdy night? I know in most places I referee you get a cohort of spectators every now and again who are not affiliated to any team. They are simply there to yell abuse at you at every opportunity. Then there is the random man with a dog ...

 

[RustyRef]

Is it possible some of these fans pay to enter to simply abuse the ref and have a rowdy night? I know in most places I referee you get a cohort of spectators every now and again who are not affiliated to any team. They are simply there to yell abuse at you at every opportunity. Then there is the random man with a dog ...

Yes, 100%. When most games are being played there is almost always at least one village that has lost their idiot for a few hours. My theory has always been that they are abused by their other half at home, and see 90 minutes of shouting at match officials as a relief. One old boy at Enfield Town use to spend the entire game following AR2 up and down the line shouting abuse at them. He eventually gave up with me when I just kept grinning at him, I think he came to the conclusion that I was crazier than he was ...

 

[one]

A few games before going to lockdown here which ended the season of was doing the line for a young ref of a certain race at a ground with paying spectators. Small entry fee only with about 200 or so spectators. There was a spectator of another race known to let's just say rival the refs race standing next to the fence behind me. Not too many people where this guy was. He was constantly moaning and yelling at the ref's decisions. Nothing too serious until towards the end of the half when after a decision he said "f'ing <ref's race>s". Not very loud but loud enough for me to clearly hear it.

Interested in opinions if I should have taken any actions if if so what?

 

[JamesL]

A few games before going to lockdown here which ended the season of was doing the line for a young ref of a certain race at a ground with paying spectators. Small entry fee only with about 200 or so spectators. There was a spectator of another race known to let's just say rival the refs race standing next to the fence behind me. Not too many people where this guy was. He was constantly moaning and yelling at the ref's decisions. Nothing too serious until towards the end of the half when after a decision he said "f'ing <ref's race>s". Not very loud but loud enough for me to clearly hear it.

Interested in opinions if I should have taken any actions if if so what?

Here in England the match should have been temporarily stopped (I think for one spectator at the next stoppage would suffice) and the home club/secretary made aware and the expectation would be the spectator would be dealt with.

 

[one]

Here in England the match should have been temporarily stopped (I think for one spectator at the next stoppage would suffice) and the home club/secretary made aware and the expectation would be the spectator would be dealt with.

Similar here. I turned and had a look at the guy immediately after he said it. I could see he realised he is in trouble. Next stoppage I flagged the referee. Told him about it. He approached the club manager at the ground. I didn't hear that conversation. They came to me to identify the culprit whom by this time was walking out of the ground (not so much of a stadium).
Reports also sent.