Full-Time on Field Coach Dissent

[NoFoulsAllowed]

I watch that Dorking series and have seen it a few times in person and in various clips.

Coach walks over for full-time 'Hand Shakes' but instead uses the opportunity to tell the referee what they really thought of their performance.

Occasionally they go too far and I see the referee award a yellow.

Law 12 Team Officials

Under CAUTION you have:
Showing a lack of respect for the game
Persistent unacceptable behaviour
Acting in a provocative or inflammatory manner
Dissent by words or action


But the best fit I could find in law for a full-time dissent is under SENDING-OFF:

Entering the field of play to:
Confront a match official (including at half-time and full-time)


Now my thoughts on this is if they have approached you at the handshake spot, have they entered the field to solely give you dissent.

So basically looking to the experienced heads. If you have an observer and a manager is giving you prolonged dissent at the handshake space are you going yellow or red.

Would an observer always expect a red?

 

[Kent Ref]

I watch that Dorking series and have seen it a few times in person and in various clips.

Coach walks over for full-time 'Hand Shakes' but instead uses the opportunity to tell the referee what they really thought of their performance.

Occasionally they go too far and I see the referee award a yellow.

Law 12 Team Officials

Under CAUTION you have:
Showing a lack of respect for the game
Persistent unacceptable behaviour
Acting in a provocative or inflammatory manner
Dissent by words or action


But the best fit I could find in law for a full-time dissent is under SENDING-OFF:

Entering the field of play to:
Confront a match official (including at half-time and full-time)


Now my thoughts on this is if they have approached you at the handshake spot, have they entered the field to solely give you dissent.

So basically looking to the experienced heads. If you have an observer and a manager is giving you prolonged dissent at the handshake space are you going yellow or red.

Would an observer always expect a red?

I'm no expert but your description says this is red by law.

Red by observer? No idea.

 

[NoFoulsAllowed]

I'm no expert but your description says this is red by law.

Red by observer? No idea.

I'll simplify it.

If a manager is giving dissent at full-time, on the pitch.

Is this a mandatory red.

Or is there discretion and wiggle room to award a yellow. Would a yellow be justified in law.

 

[Kent Ref]

I'm confused now as you said a manager confronting a referee after the game is a red card offence.

Is this to do with "alternative reffering" while being assessed?

 

[NoFoulsAllowed]

Hi @Kent Ref

I'm asking if anyone can clarify the correct procedure.

If a manager comes up and starts excessively gobbing off at full-time.

If I decide I am going to book them, does it have to be a red card.

I reckon so. But just looking to see if there is wiggle room, that can be justified in law.

As I see many referees giving a yellow card at full-time to coaches on the field of play.

 

[RustyRef]

Entering the pitch to confront a match official is listed as a red card offence. There’s probably some wiggle room based on how you define confront, but if there is any level of anger it should be a red card

 

[ChasObserverRefDeveloper]

Let's start by taking the Observer out of the equation, as their presence shouldn't affect the referee's approach.
Context is important - if a coach/manager enters the f. o. p. to shake hands with the match official(s) and then starts along the line "but you got both penalties wrong" they are about to cross the line marked "acceptable"
At that point, one approach which works is to say "I will discuss it with you, but not here. Give me ten minutes to complete the paperwork, please. In you go."
Accompany that with an arm signal pointing to the dressing room, and step back one pace.
If the coach/manager continues to moan, make it clear "Go now, please, or it's at least a yellow". . . then if necessary a yellow for dissent, or if necessary a red for confronting a match official.
As @RustyRef has said, the wiggle room arises as the "enters to confront" wording can be interpreted in more than one way.
It’s a "You had to be here" situation.

 

[RustyRef]

Let's start by taking the Observer out of the equation, as their presence shouldn't affect the referee's approach.
Context is important - if a coach/manager enters the f. o. p. to shake hands with the match official(s) and then starts along the line "but you got both penalties wrong" they are about to cross the line marked "acceptable"
At that point, one approach which works is to say "I will discuss it with you, but not here. Give me ten minutes to complete the paperwork, please. In you go."
Accompany that with an arm signal pointing to the dressing room, and step back one pace.
If the coach/manager continues to moan, make it clear "Go now, please, or it's at least a yellow". . . then if necessary a yellow for dissent, or if necessary a red for confronting a match official.
As @RustyRef has said, the wiggle room arises as the "enters to confront" wording can be interpreted in more than one way.
It’s a "You had to be here" situation.

I’d probably escalate that faster, I wouldn’t be warning them they’d be about to be getting a yellow card, rather go straight in with they are at risk of getting a red card.

I think generally you can tell the way they walk towards you what their behaviour is likely to be. The one notable exception to that was when Sean Dyche was striding towards us in his purposeful way and we all assumed he was fuming, but he shook our hands and said he thought we had been excellent. He’s just scary even when he is happy

 

[NoFoulsAllowed]

Let's start by taking the Observer out of the equation, as their presence shouldn't affect the referee's approach.
Context is important - if a coach/manager enters the f. o. p. to shake hands with the match official(s) and then starts along the line "but you got both penalties wrong" they are about to cross the line marked "acceptable"
At that point, one approach which works is to say "I will discuss it with you, but not here. Give me ten minutes to complete the paperwork, please. In you go."
Accompany that with an arm signal pointing to the dressing room, and step back one pace.
If the coach/manager continues to moan, make it clear "Go now, please, or it's at least a yellow". . . then if necessary a yellow for dissent, or if necessary a red for confronting a match official.
As @RustyRef has said, the wiggle room arises as the "enters to confront" wording can be interpreted in more than one way.
It’s a "You had to be here" situation.

Perfect explanation. Thank you

 

[Russell Jones]

One key thing to remember is that from an Observer point of view, it is likely the visual aspect that is all important. A manager could conceivably come up to you with a beaming smile, shake you warmly by the hand and then call you all sorts of unmentionable things … the Observer will be none the wiser. Conversely, they could be having a perfectly reasonable discussion but if it lasts a while and involves obvious arm waving etc then an Observer will expect some form of action.

Additionally, I’ll show far less tolerance if a manager comes onto the pitch to engage in discussion at half time, as that’s less ‘expected’ and is time that they should be using to coach their team

 

[RustyRef]

One key thing to remember is that from an Observer point of view, it is likely the visual aspect that is all important. A manager could conceivably come up to you with a beaming smile, shake you warmly by the hand and then call you all sorts of unmentionable things … the Observer will be none the wiser. Conversely, they could be having a perfectly reasonable discussion but if it lasts a while and involves obvious arm waving etc then an Observer will expect some form of action.

Additionally, I’ll show far less tolerance if a manager comes onto the pitch to engage in discussion at half time, as that’s less ‘expected’ and is time that they should be using to coach their team

I think that is part of the problem, football culture has long required managers to shake hands with each other and the match officials and that requires them to enter the pitch. I spent a long time as a manager and usually genuinely thanked the officials after the game, but there were a few occasions where I had to hold myself back in terms of not saying what I wanted to say. I’m capable of doing that, I don’t fly off the handle and even when I’m very annoyed I generally don’t show it, but a lot of people aren’t.

With a law saying it is a red card offence to confront the match officials on the pitch, including after the game, perhaps a culture change is also needed that removes the “need” for managers to be on there in the first place. I know there’s no excuse for abuse, but it probably does create an unnecessary risk of confrontation.

 

[NoFoulsAllowed]

I think that is part of the problem, football culture has long required managers to shake hands with each other and the match officials and that requires them to enter the pitch. I spent a long time as a manager and usually genuinely thanked the officials after the game, but there were a few occasions where I had to hold myself back in terms of not saying what I wanted to say. I’m capable of doing that, I don’t fly off the handle and even when I’m very annoyed I generally don’t show it, but a lot of people aren’t.

With a law saying it is a red card offence to confront the match officials on the pitch, including after the game, perhaps a culture change is also needed that removes the “need” for managers to be on there in the first place. I know there’s no excuse for abuse, but it probably does create an unnecessary risk of confrontation.

The post game handshake isn't mandatory (unless it is in League rules).

I mean it is good etiquette and shows respect.

But if you are an extremely agitated manager. Surely you can remove yourself from the handshake situation without consequence.

 

[RustyRef]

The post game handshake isn't mandatory (unless it is in League rules).

I mean it is good etiquette and shows respect.

But if you are an extremely agitated manager. Surely you can remove yourself from the handshake situation without consequence. it isn’t mandatory

I know it isn’t mandatory, but how many times do we see managers storming across the pitch and know full well what is going to happen? They probably think they are obliged to shake the officials’ hands, and also probably don’t have the emotional intelligence to know that going on there would be a really bad idea.

 

[ChasObserverRefDeveloper]

And the other problem is the grounds where the technical areas are on the far side from the changing rooms, so club officials have to cross the f.o.p.

 

[Archer]

To me a key difference is entering the pitch TO confront the officials vs entering the pitch AND confronting the officials.

Game expects (ugh) staff to enter FOP at end of match. If they barrel straight in my direction with choice words about what a fabulous advantage I played then the card reflex might start twitching.

If they’re on the pitch patting their #8 on the bum, nodding pleasantly at the opponents and waving at the packed west stand and then compliment my varying whistle tone as handshakes begin, I could be more… open to a conversation initially.

And that’s how I’d justify a yellow in Law.

 

[RefRyanAus]

Agreed. I think it is useful to explore the concept of ‘confrontation’ a bit further. We might reasonably say that confrontation involves a direct, bold and assertive challenge (perhaps an unreasonable one in our view) rather than one that is polite or enquiring. If we feel that this is indeed the kind of posture adopted and it seems unlikely that any sensible discourse will disarm the situation quickly then dismissal seems an appropriate response. Of course there wouldn’t be too many coaches without suspension if we sent off every enquiring or frustrated coach after a game.

 

[RefereeX]

Yeah I gave this some thought a few months back after having a coach that just would not move away at full time, despite the fact he wasn't overly aggressive or abusive, but he refused to accept what I was saying and I show him the red card because I was under the impression that because he entered the FOP anything less was wrong in law.... but then I re-read the wording and realised that it could be said that he didn't enter the FOP to confront me, he entered the FOP and then confronted me (with dissent) so a caution initially should have been sufficient.

 

[NoFoulsAllowed]

Yeah I gave this some thought a few months back after having a coach that just would not move away at full time, despite the fact he wasn't overly aggressive or abusive, but he refused to accept what I was saying and I show him the red card because I was under the impression that because he entered the FOP anything less was wrong in law.... but then I re-read the wording and realised that it could be said that he didn't enter the FOP to confront me, he entered the FOP and then confronted me (with dissent) so a caution initially should have been sufficient.

See I'm happy with this. Cause I reckon before starting this thread I would of done the same.

Now I get a bit of experience behind my decision and should an observer question me, I will have a good reason for my course of action.