RefSix

Foul?

Craig Evans

New Member
Level 7 Referee
Just a quick one; I'm sure you all get these in your games so just wondering what the general consensus is.

Say we've got blue and red team, red player is going towards the ball (not necessarily in attacking position) blue player comes across to challenge, yet his challenge misses both the ball and player.

I always find this tricky as red player feels he was impeded as he had to avoid the challenge however, blue player says no contact is made..

Discus.
 

ref craig

RefChat Addict
Right then my first question now would be did the defender tackle in a dangerous manner but if not then no free kick as it got no where near ball or man so play to continue and then tell us what you gave in that incident
 

Craig Evans

New Member
Level 7 Referee
There's no intention to hit the player. I think if blue player had eyes only on red player I'd give FK.
But in this instance there's nothing dangerous about the challenge, I let play continue.
 

MattyontheWhistle

RefChat Addict
Always a tricky one without seeing the incident itself. Was Blue player careless in the way he challenged? Given that he missed both the ball and player it would seem so.

There are grounds with which you could sell the FK as there doesn't have to be contact made to be a foul, although it does help!
 

Mick.

RefChat Addict
No offence. If he has made a challenge (i.e a tackle) and has missed, there is no offence. You might be able to sell an "attempts to kick" but if the challenge is a mis-timed slide for example, which misses everything, there is no offence of "attempts to tackle". I had one recently with a girl sliding from some distance away which, had it connected with the player would probably have ended up as a yellow. As it was, she was miles out and, while the attacker had to avoid the challenge, the avoidance was no different than anyone else trying to avoid a lawful tackle. Cue shouts for a foul. I shout, no offence, play on.
I don't even think that you could get away with "jumps at an opponent" but the Laws do not specify that contact has to be made when "jumping at" so you might be ok. Not impeding as the player has attempted (however poorly) to get the ball (or player) and failed. They have not got in the way of someone running towards the ball which impede would imply.
 

MattyontheWhistle

RefChat Addict
No offence. If he has made a challenge (i.e a tackle) and has missed, there is no offence. You might be able to sell an "attempts to kick" but if the challenge is a mis-timed slide for example, which misses everything, there is no offence of "attempts to tackle". I had one recently with a girl sliding from some distance away which, had it connected with the player would probably have ended up as a yellow. As it was, she was miles out and, while the attacker had to avoid the challenge, the avoidance was no different than anyone else trying to avoid a lawful tackle. Cue shouts for a foul. I shout, no offence, play on.
I don't even think that you could get away with "jumps at an opponent" but the Laws do not specify that contact has to be made when "jumping at" so you might be ok. Not impeding as the player has attempted (however poorly) to get the ball (or player) and failed. They have not got in the way of someone running towards the ball which impede would imply.
Can't disagree with those points when deciding what, or if it's a yellow card offence.

However, with ANY challenge for the ball we have to judge whether it is Fair, Careless, Reckless, or Excessive.

There doesn't have to be contact with the opponent for it to be careless.
 

Mick.

RefChat Addict
Can't disagree with those points when deciding what, or if it's a yellow card offence.

However, with ANY challenge for the ball we have to judge whether it is Fair, Careless, Reckless, or Excessive.

There doesn't have to be contact with the opponent for it to be careless.
Hmm. Not sure I agree. There is no wording that identifies a generic offence under "Challenge". All challenges are specified, e.g. fair charge is a challenge, a fair tackle is a challenge, yet offences are specified under these titles (charge/tackle). If a player tackled fairly, they would get the ball and may, as a consequence have contact with a player. I accept that in tackling fairly they may not make contact, but the act will (in a fair tackle) result in contact with the ball. However, I cannot envisage a situation where they would tackle a player and not make contact for a foul to have occurred. As I said before, the laws do not identify an offence of attempting to tackle, merely the act of tackling which, by its definition would suggest careless etc contact with a player.
 

MattyontheWhistle

RefChat Addict
That's my point Mick. Any challenge for the ball asks for there to be a decision or judgement from the referee - the first being was it fair?

What is fair is largely defined by the LOTG, however, I still believe that a player can commit a foul without making contact with the opponent. Attempting to tackle isn't an offence as such, but any tackle needs to be judged by the referee. THe LOTG don't define a 'tackle' as such, but an attempt to win the ball is pretty accurate, or a 'challenging an opponent for the ball' to borrow from Law 11.

So for the sake of argument, can we assume that a 'tackle' is a challenge for the ball while it is on the ground/below knee level and that we are only having to consider the feet and legs of the players - let's not bring arms and shoulders etc into the example.

So, can a player challenge unfairly, without touching the ball or the opponent?

He can win the ball cleanly, with or without contact. Contact doesn't mean it's a foul - Play
He can impede an opponent's progress without physical contact - IDFK (under certain circumstances)
He can win the ball with a careless challenge, which has introduced some risk to his opponent. - DFK
He can win the ball recklessly, where there is a clear risk of injury to the opponent. DFK-YC
He can win the ball with an excessive challenge, where he has used excessive force. DFK-RC

He can, jump in, both feet raised, studs showing, over the top of the ball with a stamping motion and miss both the player and the ball because his opponent sees it coming and avoids it. Contact or not, he is walking.

It is the fact that he has challenged an opponent for the ball that brings it into the realm of possible foul. The specific offence could be one of a number.

So sliding in to a challenge, missing the ball and the opponent loses his footing while attempting to avoid possible injury by jumping over the leg, stumbling and falling over. The fact that the challenger has introduced an element of risk to his opponent's safety that makes it a foul, and that is what we need to judge. Not whether contact is made or not.

The challenger may miss the ball, but in doing so has caused the attacker to change direction to avoid contact and the ball goes to a defenders team mate, that otherwise would have remained in the attacker's possession. Have the defending team won the ball fairly or not?

It is impossible to hypotheticalise (is that a word?) real-world situations in a forum such as this, but the question can a foul tackle occur if there is no contact made with the ball or the opponent? Has to be answered 'Yes - in certain circumstances'
 
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Mick.

RefChat Addict
Matty I think that we are basically singing from the same hymn sheet, just to a slightly different tune.
 
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