Ref4Me

England vs Ivory Coast

Joshref

Well-Known Member
Level 7 Referee
A very rare event of a red card in an international friendly. Even rarer that it’s for 2 yellows. Even rarer than that; within the first half. The cherry on top, the second yellow seems to have been for dissent.

Cannot for the life of me remember the last time I saw a second yellow card being given for dissent, in the Prem you rarely see a first yellow giving 😂. Good to see at the top level though
 
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QuaverRef

I used to be indecisive but now i'm not so sure
And yet according to the commentators it’s all the referees fault ‘because it’s a friendly’. I accept we maybe have a higher level of tolerance on certain things during these types of games but why should the referee stand there and take it just because there’s nothing on the line? Maybe Aurier should use common sense and think maybe I should keep quiet as there’s nothing on the line
 

RustyRef

Administrator
Staff member
And yet according to the commentators it’s all the referees fault ‘because it’s a friendly’. I accept we maybe have a higher level of tolerance on certain things during these types of games but why should the referee stand there and take it just because there’s nothing on the line? Maybe Aurier should use common sense and think maybe I should keep quiet as there’s nothing on the line
Martin Tyler has spent a lot of time blaming Aurier, not sure there was much blame on the referee.

I think the referee has pulled the yellow for dissent without realising he had already cautioned Aurier. That's why it took an age for him to get the red card out, ordinarily that would have happened immediately after the yellow.
 

QuaverRef

I used to be indecisive but now i'm not so sure
Martin Tyler has spent a lot of time blaming Aurier, not sure there was much blame on the referee.
I’m not sure which commentator it was but they were initially saying ‘the referee has made a rod for his own back’ after booking players earlier in the game during a friendly. Even after the reckless challenge on Stering which caught him on the ankle, one commentator said ‘the referee needs to be careful here’ due to setting a precedent. It’s very lazy commentary
 

RustyRef

Administrator
Staff member
I’m not sure which commentator it was but they were initially saying ‘the referee has made a rod for his own back’ after booking players earlier in the game during a friendly. Even after the reckless challenge on Stering which caught him on the ankle, one commentator said ‘the referee needs to be careful here’ due to setting a precedent. It’s very lazy commentary
Rightly or wrongly, there is an expectation that you rely more on warnings than cards in friendlies. For all it was a pull of Sterling's shorts for Aurier's first caution, I think most FIFA referees would let that go rather than caution in a friendly. And if you are giving a dissent caution that will lead to a red card you really need it to be WAAAAAY more obvious than it was last night, no one really knew what had happened. Friendlies are to develop the teams, no one is going to thank you for making it 11 vs 10 unless it is for something that is very obviously a red card offence, which is presumably why Grealish was arguing the case for Aurier (he most definitely would not have done that in a competitive game).
 

Max2

Well-Known Member
Level 3 Referee
Nah, balls to 'em. These are experienced professionals at the highest tier of their sport, not a bunch of pre-teens learning the intricacies of the game and having a run out. If they don't want officials to apply the LotG then have a training match behind closed doors at Loughborough, St George's Park or wherever.
 

Justylove

Premium Member
Premium Member
Level 4 Referee
Debating this sums everything that is wrong with the game up nicely.

The whole blaming or accusing referees of over reacting to bad player behaviour simply condones the behaviour and allows players to take more and more liberties, each time they get away with it, they push the boundary that little bit further the next time.

Maybe I'm being too idealistic, but I'd love to see a point where from the top down there is a concerted crack down on dissent and OFFINABUS that makes a meaningful impact on the way in which players and coaches behave. I was thinking back to some of the initiatives that have been brought in around dissent (10 yard movement forward) or penalising the blatent holds in the penalty area and the common theme has always been the lack of appetite to support the match officials to implement them over a sustained period of time.

It should be irrelevant that it's a second yellow for dissent and therefore a send off, we shouldn't be looking to excuse the player and castigate the referee, quite the opposite, we should be espousing how stupid the player is to get such an avoidable second caution.
 
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Ryanj91

Well-Known Member
Level 7 Referee
Are you sure it was for dissent?

I thought it was for simulation 😂

If it was for dissent - I definitely haven't seen it.
 

RustyRef

Administrator
Staff member
Debating this sums everything that is wrong with the game up nicely.

The whole blaming or accusing referees of over reacting to bad player behaviour simply condones the behaviour and allows players to take more and more liberties, each time they get away with it, they push the boundary that little bit further the next time.

Maybe I'm being too idealistic, but I'd love to see a point where from the top down there is a concerted crack down on dissent and OFFINABUS that makes a meaningful impact on the way in which players and coaches behave. I was thinking back to some of the initiatives that have been brought in around dissent (10 yard movement forward) or penalising the blatent holds in the penalty area and the common theme has always been the lack of appetite to support the match officials to implement them over a sustained period of time.

It should be irrelevant that it's a second yellow for dissent and therefore a send off, we shouldn't be looking to excuse the player and castigate the referee, quite the opposite, we should be espousing how stupid the player is to get such an avoidable second caution.
To be clear, I am not at all castigating the referee. Rather just pointing out that is goes against what is expected at senior levels.

I like your ideas, but they will never, ever happen as the clubs and players hold way too much power.
 

RustyRef

Administrator
Staff member
Are you sure it was for dissent?

I thought it was for simulation 😂

If it was for dissent - I definitely haven't seen it.
99% sure. If it was for simulation that is even worse for the referee, might be able to support playing on but there is absolutely no way simulation could be supported.
 

Justylove

Premium Member
Premium Member
Level 4 Referee
To be clear, I am not at all castigating the referee. Rather just pointing out that is goes against what is expected at senior levels.

I like your ideas, but they will never, ever happen as the clubs and players hold way too much power.
It wasn't directed at you, it was a general statement.

And I agree it won't happen for the reasons you've stated.
 

Ben448844

RefChat Addict
Level 4 Referee
Debating this sums everything that is wrong with the up nicely.

The whole blaming or accusing referees of over reacting to bad player behaviour simply condones the behaviour and allows players to take more and more liberties, each time they get away with it, they push the boundary that little bit further the next time.

Maybe I'm being too idealistic, but I'd love to see a point where from the top down there is a concerted crack down on dissent and OFFINABUS that makes a meaningful impact on the way in which players and coaches behave. I was thinking back to some of the initiatives that have been brought in around dissent (10 yard movement forward) or penalising the blatent holds in the penalty area and the common theme has always been the lack of appetite to support the match officials to implement them over a sustained period of time.

It should be irrelevant that it's a second yellow for dissent and therefore a send off, we shouldn't be looking to excuse the player and castigate the referee, quite the opposite, we should be espousing how stupid the player is to get such an avoidable second caution.

The only way to do it would be to make swearing an automatic red card. You'd still get arguments about what words constitute swearing because that's football but if you had a blanket law like that then it's 100% on the player and no ambiguity. Will never happen of course.

The measures which were brought in that you highlighted were universally ignored by almost all refs. I only remember Mike Dean actually enforcing them but there must have been others that did at least briefly. Too many other pressures like tv and not wanting to be the main topic on Sky Sports News and the papers (and who can blame a ref for that!).

Ultimately there's bo appetite to stop OFFINABUS towards officials. Ideally they'd like it to stop but its not important enough to actually do anything about it from top to bottom. My favourite thing in the new respect initiative (some half baked video which nobody gives a hoot about, along with the rest of them), where Harry Kane is asking for refs to be respected. Watch Harry in the next match, he is never more than 5 yards from the ref. I think that's half the reason why he's started dropping deeper in games 🤣 at least he learnt something from Mourinho's time at Spurs! What a load of ineffective tosh.
 

Justylove

Premium Member
Premium Member
Level 4 Referee
The only way to do it would be to make swearing an automatic red card. You'd still get arguments about what words constitute swearing because that's football but if you had a blanket law like that then it's 100% on the player and no ambiguity. Will never happen of course.

The measures which were brought in that you highlighted were universally ignored by almost all refs. I only remember Mike Dean actually enforcing them but there must have been others that did at least briefly. Too many other pressures like tv and not wanting to be the main topic on Sky Sports News and the papers (and who can blame a ref for that!).

Ultimately there's bo appetite to stop OFFINABUS towards officials. Ideally they'd like it to stop but its not important enough to actually do anything about it from top to bottom. My favourite thing in the new respect initiative (some half baked video which nobody gives a hoot about, along with the rest of them), where Harry Kane is asking for refs to be respected. Watch Harry in the next match, he is never more than 5 yards from the ref. I think that's half the reason why he's started dropping deeper in games 🤣 at least he learnt something from Mourinho's time at Spurs! What a load of ineffective tosh.
Mic up referees and have the powers that be not only support the referees in their approach to stamping it out, but penalise the referees that DON'T do it.

Anything that slips through the net on game day gets dealt with retrospectively, none of this 'the ref saw or heard it so we can't look at it'

You'll have carnage for a short period of time until players and officials settle into it and over time the media narrative will turn to 'the player knows they can't do that'

The issue is that there is no appetite at the top level of the game, where it matters most to make the change, sponsors want the maximum exposure for their brands through the superstars that wear their gear and clubs know their superstar signings are the things that bring in revenue for them in terms of ticket sales and merchandise, so can't have them missing games for something as 'silly' as calling the referee a c**t.
 

Quarryref

Active Member
Level 3 Referee
I think OFFINABUS and swearing are two different things.

Red card for swearing has been tried before. In the early 90s I was playing what would now be Step 4 and it was introduced as an experiment (pre national league system getting organised, so it could have been that league only). Player sent off for saying the 'F' word when he broke his leg. Experiment didn't last long.
 

Big Cat

RefChat Addict
Level 4 Referee
Like 'ownership of clubs', 'participant behaviour' will come to a head at some point. Maybe a serious assault against a Referee with tragic consequences, maybe a despicable act in a very high profile televised game. The game is exposed to this risk perpetually and risk will always come to fruition. Personally, I think the decision makers are wrong to fret about excessive dismissals and so on. I think behaviour could be addressed on a united front and I think the game would benefit from it in terms of the key consideration... money
 

ChasObserverRefDeveloper

Regular Contributor
Mic up referees and have the powers that be not only support the referees in their approach to stamping it out, but penalise the referees that DON'T do it.

Anything that slips through the net on game day gets dealt with retrospectively, none of this 'the ref saw or heard it so we can't look at it'

You'll have carnage for a short period of time until players and officials settle into it and over time the media narrative will turn to 'the player knows they can't do that'

The issue is that there is no appetite at the top level of the game, where it matters most to make the change, sponsors want the maximum exposure for their brands through the superstars that wear their gear and clubs know their superstar signings are the things that bring in revenue for them in terms of ticket sales and merchandise, so can't have them missing games for something as 'silly' as calling the referee a c**t.
As a new referee in the Croydon Sunday League many many years ago, at the pre-seaon meeting it was confirmed that at the league AGM clubs had agreed a rule change whereby any player sent off for (what was then termed) foul or abusive language and/or gestures would be banned for life.
Referees were asked to remind secretaries and captains before each game.
Some established referees appeared to ignore the instruction, others of us reminded then dismissed when apposite to do so.
Fourteen cases in the first month, rule changed at the end of the season🤔
Sadly, language standards now are so low in society and football, and so many referees selectively deaf, that it can only get worse.
A very sad state of affairs when people keep their young children away from the local park on days when football is being played.
 

Big Cat

RefChat Addict
Level 4 Referee
As a new referee in the Croydon Sunday League many many years ago, at the pre-seaon meeting it was confirmed that at the league AGM clubs had agreed a rule change whereby any player sent off for (what was then termed) foul or abusive language and/or gestures would be banned for life.
Referees were asked to remind secretaries and captains before each game.
Some established referees appeared to ignore the instruction, others of us reminded then dismissed when apposite to do so.
Fourteen cases in the first month, rule changed at the end of the season🤔
Sadly, language standards now are so low in society and football, and so many referees selectively deaf, that it can only get worse.
A very sad state of affairs when people keep their young children away from the local park on days when football is being played.
That's just such a bad idea. Never gonna work. can't go it alone, which is why it has to be 'top-down'
Besides, the punishment exceeded the crime during that period in that league.
 

ChasObserverRefDeveloper

Regular Contributor
That's just such a bad idea. Never gonna work. can't go it alone, which is why it has to be 'top-down'
Besides, the punishment exceeded the crime during that period in that league.
We knew it wouldn't work, but getting the message across about unacceptable words/gestures did work in that league and the other local leagues (most players played in more than one) for several seasons - it improved.
Back in the day, top down was not an issue, because football on TV was limited, and there was not a problem with top players' behaviour.
The concern back then was the issue I mentioned as today's problem - local parks full of adults and teenagers using OFFINABUS language unchecked, so locals avoid the area.
 

Big Cat

RefChat Addict
Level 4 Referee
We knew it wouldn't work, but getting the message across about unacceptable words/gestures did work in that league and the other local leagues (most players played in more than one) for several seasons - it improved.
Back in the day, top down was not an issue, because football on TV was limited, and there was not a problem with top players' behaviour.
The concern back then was the issue I mentioned as today's problem - local parks full of adults and teenagers using OFFINABUS language unchecked, so locals avoid the area.
Understood. Good explanation 👍
 
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