RefSix

Deliberate

one

RefChat Addict
#1
Just an example of how rediculous and complex the law can get (from the discussion in another thread). Put two of the most complained about offences together, deliberate handball and offside.

Handling has to be 'deliberate' for it to be an offence.

An offside phase is reset by a defender's 'deliberate' play of the ball

But 'deliberate' is (or expected to be) interpreted differently in each. Here is an example of conflicting interpretation form my view point.

A through ball by an attacker to a team mate. A defender in a good position and good opportunity tries to chest block the ball by quickly moving into its path with his hands firmly tucked behind his back. He poorly judges the path of the ball, the ball hits the outside part of his upper arm (only) and goes to another attacker in offside position. I see this as deliberate play of the ball but not deliberate handball.
 

one

RefChat Addict
#3
Sounds like a deflection to me ;)
He had intent to block the ball, he was in a good position to do so and had good opportunity. I think putting all those together should rule out a deflection. It was poor judgement (skill) that caused the problem. Just like when a poorly miscued clearance resetting offside.
 
#4
I agree with your judgement - and I'm pretty sure David Elleray wrote the same at one point.

But you're right - that level of complexity is beyond most players. Not saying they're stupid, it just requires some deep thought on the law that players and spectators aren't going to do. It gets even more confusing when it's blocking a shot on goal, as we discussed in another thread.

If the DHB law is changed to it being a foul when the ball is handled while deliberately playing the ball, that makes these ones a foul, which would simplify things. Although probably wouldn't make a difference to this scenario! Except that you could just call it advantage and be done with it.
 
#5
Just an example of how rediculous and complex the law can get (from the discussion in another thread). Put two of the most complained about offences together, deliberate handball and offside.

Handling has to be 'deliberate' for it to be an offence.

An offside phase is reset by a defender's 'deliberate' play of the ball

But 'deliberate' is (or expected to be) interpreted differently in each. Here is an example of conflicting interpretation form my view point.

A through ball by an attacker to a team mate. A defender in a good position and good opportunity tries to chest block the ball by quickly moving into its path with his hands firmly tucked behind his back. He poorly judges the path of the ball, the ball hits the outside part of his upper arm (only) and goes to another attacker in offside position. I see this as deliberate play of the ball but not deliberate handball.
As the newbie to the board, I'm a bit hesitant to reply to a thread that has been dormant for a couple of weeks, but I'm going to do so anyway as it seems to go along with the other live handling thread.

As I picture this from what is described, I've got a deliberate handling call. The defender deliberately moved into the ball with his arm (the fact he tucked his hands doesn't change that). I don't see the concept that he was trying to use his chest (which presumes we can read his mind) as exonerating him here. We have arm to ball with plenty of time (2 of the 3 criteria in Law 12)--he chose to challenge for the ball that way and used his arm to do it.
 
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