The Ref Stop

David Coote leaked video

Really interesting (and, FWIW, I think excellent) piece by Barney Ronay in the Grauniad. I would also add I agree with @Runner Ref - Respect campaigns are a load of tosh unless there’s a genuine will to deal with the issue by The FA. All the evidence points to that will not being there, not really.

https://www.theguardian.com/footbal...-eyed-david-coote-was-made-by-modern-football

“And yes, first things first, Coote is done as an elite referee now. Not because he’s necessarily biased on this evidence, or because he calls Klopp “a c*nt”, but because he calls him “a German c*nt”, which is arguably racist abuse under the English game’s guidelines. A Wrexham supporter was given a three-year ban from football in April for calling Tranmere Rovers supporters “English *******s”. We can’t have the referee held to a lower standard. Part of Coote’s role is to understand and report this kind of incident during a game. He can’t do that now.

“The second point, and it will not be a popular one, is that we also need to be careful of David Coote now….Coote is also a fragile, breakable human being like the rest of us and this incident is going to make his life incredibly difficult for a long time…

“Is it really a huge surprise David Coote or similar should end up brutalised and spitting toxins on a sofa? The Burnley game Coote refers to in the video ended with him being confronted by Andy Robertson with the words (among many others): “F*ck me. What’s the point of having you in the middle? What’s the point of having you? Eh? F*ck me, honestly.

“What is the reasonable response to this as a working environment? What kind of human do we want David Coote to be? Because a normal person is going to end up spitting it all back out at some point. Being recorded while doing so is an unfortunate choice. But while this may be wretched behaviour, it is hardly inexplicable.

“It is, however, a disastrous turn of events in a much wider sense. This incident will tarnish further the daily experience of referees at every level, from grassroots volunteers who really don’t need any more insanity in their lives, to the weirdly fertile conspiracy culture that is in danger of taking a genuine hold on the elite game…

“Refereeing is basically a nightmare now, a job that requires you to be simultaneously a regulation hyper-nerd, super-cool air traffic controller, long distance runner, font of matey common sense and also immune to mass abuse and threats of violence….David Coote didn’t make football. Football made David Coote.”
 
The Ref Stop
Runner Ref said:
So if PGMOL’s first priority is keeping the EPL sweet, then they need to stop promoting any form of respect campaigns as they are simply hypocritical. This would suggest they don’t give a toss about grassroots referees.

I don’t see the relationship between EPL & PGMOL being all too rosey, simply based on how much criticism officials get on a weekly basis. If keeping the EPL happy is their main objective, maybe they should start making the stakeholders happy……

Not a cat in hells chance they would demote an official for this or not give them any games. There simply aren’t enough officials to do this with. On top of that, no employer can demote or sack someone who correctly dealt with abuse in the work place.
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You are confusing PGMOL and the FA here. PGMOL have nothing to do with respect campaigns, that comes from the FA. PGMOL probably don't give a toss about grass roots referees, why would they, the clue is in the first two letters of their name, Professional Game.

Who do you think the primary funder of PGMOL is? Let me give you a clue, it isn't the FA.
 
RustyRef said:
You are confusing PGMOL and the FA here. PGMOL have nothing to do with respect campaigns, that comes from the FA. PGMOL probably don't give a toss about grass roots referees, why would they, the clue is in the first two letters of their name, Professional Game.

Who do you think the primary funder of PGMOL is? Let me give you a clue, it isn't the FA.
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The PGMOL is jointly owned by the FA, so of course they have input in it all. And as I said earlier, if their main priority is keeping EPL sweet, they aren’t doing a very good job considering how many controversies there have been recently.

If referees continue to be abused, numbers will continue to fall as they are. Thus having a smaller pool of officials to develop. This then goes back to what @RefGod was saying in regards to officials ending up on games with the same clubs all too often.

If the PGMOL and their officials are too weak to stand up to the abuse, then the officials simply deserve it. They are the ones who have the power to stop it. Not only for themselves, but for every grassroots referee out there. The grassroots referees are the ones I feel sorry for. They’re the ones going out there on their own to a parks game and being abused.
 
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Runner Ref said:
The PGMOL is jointly owned by the FA, so of course they have input in it all. And as I said earlier, if their main priority is keeping EPL sweet, they aren’t doing a very good job considering how many controversies there have been recently.

If referees continue to be abused, numbers will continue to fall as they are. Thus having a smaller pool of officials to develop. This then goes back to what @RefGod was saying in regards to officials ending up on games with the same clubs all too often.

If the PGMOL and their officials are too weak to stand up to the abuse, then the officials simply deserve it. They are the ones who have the power to stop it. Not only for themselves, but for every grassroots referee out there. The grassroots referees are the ones I feel sorry for. They’re the ones going out there on their own to a parks game and being abused.
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They are jointly owned by the FA, but they are predominantly funded by the EPL, and there's no doubt they have the most influence on them.

This situation with David Coote has absolutely nothing to do with grassroot refereeing, really not sure why you are trying to take it down that road. This situation won't have any impact on grass roots refereeing whatsoever.
 
RustyRef said:
They are jointly owned by the FA, but they are predominantly funded by the EPL, and there's no doubt they have the most influence on them.

This situation with David Coote has absolutely nothing to do with grassroot refereeing, really not sure why you are trying to take it down that road. This situation won't have any impact on grass roots refereeing whatsoever.
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So you’re saying the EPL have influence over PGMOL? That doesn’t sound very impartial if they’re refereeing to suit whatever they want. Referees are supposed to be there to be impartial. If your theory of them having to please EPL stakeholders is correct, then that business model needs to change. Worryingly PGMOL are skint and are asking for more funding. So if they want more money from EPL, does this mean more bending over to keep them happy?

Of course it affects grassroots referees. They’re going to see the video and take on the idea referees are biased/corrupt. Grassroots participants tend to mimic what they see on TV. PL referees openly fail to punish dissent and OFFINABUS, thus ignoring the LOTG. And all because it will make their paymasters get their knickers in a twist.
 
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I am of the opinion that the FA and PGMOL have been run by the EPL for many years, at least 10.

The money gives the EPL the power to call all the shots. Look at the FA Cup replays situation.

It's never going to change now.
 
DJIC said:
In theory yes, but they are managing ‘an event’, the PGMOL & EPL put referees under pressure to keep a lower profile than we at grass roots would like.

EPL & Sky want Klopp, Arteta etc to create controversy as it sells the product.
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We're not the only popular sport in the world yet the only one (bar baseball) where abusing the referee is considered part of the product.
 
Kent Ref said:
I am of the opinion that the FA and PGMOL have been run by the EPL for many years, at least 10.

The money gives the EPL the power to call all the shots. Look at the FA Cup replays situation.

It's never going to change now.
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Yes, the inmates are running the asylum
First thing the PGMOL do each season, is approach the Clubs and get them to dictate how the game is Refereed. Am I wrong there?
The PGMOL is only interested in the EPL. The Organisation has no interest in grass roots. That's a problem because it leaves the FA wasting their time with a 5-year charter on participant behaviour etc
PGMOL cards for dissent have rocketed, but the players don't care as it's still rare for behaviour to lead to a dismissal. I personally don't want the game sanitised too much, but the reality is these dissent cautions don't carry much substance as players only care about getting dismissed

The way things are going, I wonder if the PGMOL's days are numbered and whether a shake-up is needed. Howard Webb has not been the Messiah
 
I think those blaming PGMOL for referee abuse are looking at things similarly blinkered as those who say 'we should get foreign referees in the premier league because ours are rubbish'.

Do we not think referee abuse in football occurs worldwide? In fact in some countries it's way worse than it is here...
If it's a worldwide problem, how can it be the fault of the PGMOL?
 
RefereeX said:
I think those blaming PGMOL for referee abuse are looking at things similarly blinkered as those who say 'we should get foreign referees in the premier league because ours are rubbish'.

Do we not think referee abuse in football occurs worldwide? In fact in some countries it's way worse than it is here...
If it's a worldwide problem, how can it be the fault of the PGMOL?
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Referee abuse is not all PGMOL’s fault, no. But they have the power to help solve it. PGMOL operate in the most watched league in the world, therefore their games are seen by more people. By allowing the abuse, they are largely responsible.
 
RefereeX said:
I think those blaming PGMOL for referee abuse are looking at things similarly blinkered as those who say 'we should get foreign referees in the premier league because ours are rubbish'.

Do we not think referee abuse in football occurs worldwide? In fact in some countries it's way worse than it is here...
If it's a worldwide problem, how can it be the fault of the PGMOL?
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It's a myth that foreign refs (and foreign VAR) are better. Dunno where the notion of bringing in foreigners came from but forget that
I'm just indicating that PGMOL are under fire

I've always suspected the referees are way better than they're allowed to be. It's the instructions they work to that are the problem. I don't think we ever get to see a referee take charge of a game the way they'd like to (very rarely maybe, like that Spaniard in the UEFA CL Final) because they're strictly hamstrung by a determination to be consistent. Unfortunately this means consistently bad and PGMOL (and VAR FWIW) are responsible if that's the case
 
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Runner Ref said:
So you’re saying the EPL have influence over PGMOL? That doesn’t sound very impartial if they’re refereeing to suit whatever they want. Referees are supposed to be there to be impartial. If your theory of them having to please EPL stakeholders is correct, then that business model needs to change. Worryingly PGMOL are skint and are asking for more funding. So if they want more money from EPL, does this mean more bending over to keep them happy?

Of course it affects grassroots referees. They’re going to see the video and take on the idea referees are biased/corrupt. Grassroots participants tend to mimic what they see on TV. PL referees openly fail to punish dissent and OFFINABUS, thus ignoring the LOTG. And all because it will make their paymasters get their knickers in a twist.
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Look at it another way, before the Premier League all referee appointments were done by The FA, a body completely different to The Football League. The sanctioning authority ran the show fully when it came to refereeing. Since The Premier League came along The FA no longer do refereeing appointments, rather a body that is part owned by The Premier League and The Football League does them. If you own, part or otherwise, an organisation then of course there is scope to have influence it, even if you don't exercise that influence. I don't agree with it and never had, if a refereeing body was needed it should have remained fully owned by The FA, withing funding for it coming from the competitions

To be clear, there's no proof, or even really accusation, of bias or corruption. His gripe was with Klopp, the only reference to Liverpool was that they were rubbish (he used a different word) in the game that Klopp was complaining about his performance in. And in that respect he was absolutely correct, Liverpool didn't fail to beat Burnley because of Coote, it was because they weren't good enough on the day, but we all know referees are an easy target. All if really shows to grassroots players is the importance of not letting someone video you when you appear to be under the influence of something, I don't buy the argument that this is in any way a blueprint to allow grass roots players misbehave.
 
RustyRef said:
Look at it another way, before the Premier League all referee appointments were done by The FA, a body completely different to The Football League. The sanctioning authority ran the show fully when it came to refereeing. Since The Premier League came along The FA no longer do refereeing appointments, rather a body that is part owned by The Premier League and The Football League does them. If you own, part or otherwise, an organisation then of course there is scope to have influence it, even if you don't exercise that influence. I don't agree with it and never had, if a refereeing body was needed it should have remained fully owned by The FA, withing funding for it coming from the competitions

To be clear, there's no proof, or even really accusation, of bias or corruption. His gripe was with Klopp, the only reference to Liverpool was that they were rubbish (he used a different word) in the game that Klopp was complaining about his performance in. And in that respect he was absolutely correct, Liverpool didn't fail to beat Burnley because of Coote, it was because they weren't good enough on the day, but we all know referees are an easy target. All if really shows to grassroots players is the importance of not letting someone video you when you appear to be under the influence of something, I don't buy the argument that this is in any way a blueprint to allow grass roots players misbehave.
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The Burnley game doesn't really have anything to do with it. Its another unknown game in which DC says Liverpool were sh*t. But that doesn't really matter in the grand scheme of things.

But the PGMOL and their officials only have themselves to blame. They've allowed the abuse to continue, and as I said in an earlier post, there was always going to be a breaking point. Cautioning or sending a manager off for leaving the technical area is as well and good, but ignoring obvious dissent, abuse, intimidation & OFFINABUS is never going to end well.

You're probably quite right in that the EPL effectively have the PGMOL's pants down. But if that's the case, what is the point in a Howard Webb if he is just passing on the message of how EPL stakeholders want the game refereed?

I completely agree with @Big Cat in that referees are not allowed to referee it how they want. Look at someone like Anthony Taylor. Whenever he does international and european tournaments, he very rarely gets caught up in controversy. In same aspects he has even been praised outside of the refereeing fraternity. But when he does a game in the PL, he seems completely different and robotic.
 
Pretty sure the game that it's alleged DC said they were sh*t in was when he was 4th man for Aston Villa 7-2 Liverpool, which is what the photo he shows on his phone is from...

As you were...
 
Runner Ref said:
You're probably quite right in that the EPL effectively have the PGMOL's pants down. But if that's the case, what is the point in a Howard Webb if he is just passing on the message of how EPL stakeholders want the game refereed?
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The CEO of any company sets the strategy, he doesn't directly oversee the people working to implement that strategy.
Runner Ref said:
I completely agree with @Big Cat in that referees are not allowed to referee it how they want. Look at someone like Anthony Taylor. Whenever he does international and european tournaments, he very rarely gets caught up in controversy. In same aspects he has even been praised outside of the refereeing fraternity. But when he does a game in the PL, he seems completely different and robotic.
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Think you have selective memory, he's had quite a few pieces of controversy in UEFA games, and was even chased through a hotel after one of them
 
All I can say is trust me... if Coote was a Scottish ref talking about either of the big two here, it would be an inferno that would torch the entire Scottish game for years.
 
RustyRef said:
The CEO of any company sets the strategy, he doesn't directly oversee the people working to implement that strategy.

Think you have selective memory, he's had quite a few pieces of controversy in UEFA games, and was even chased through a hotel after one of them
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Football works to the Laws of the games. If what you say is true, the EPL & PGMOL are actively ignoring the laws of the game by expecting referees to take abuse, as it will upset their paylords. On top of this they are expecting referees to take abuse in the workplace. In no other industry would this be allowed. It is either that, or referees are choosing to ignore it.

In regards to AT, I remember a game at the Euros and the EL Final. Other than that, I think he does well on the European and international stage.

I also don't think it is any surprise that Michael Oliver binned Buffon in a European game. Had this been the PL, not a chance he would have done the same.
 
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