A&H

Cup Appointments....

Padfoot

Padfoot

The Persecuted One
One of the very few things I haven't had much involvement with in football, is the appointment of officials to cup games....mainly for semi's and finals for the purposes of this thread.....

Just having a glance over who has been semi final appointments on our youth county cups.....and it's truly frightening. Over the years I have lots of experience of these colleagues, from being on the line to them, to them running the line for me, and from watching them officiate games my son has played, not to mention other semi's or final's they have had in the past.

Out of the ones that I have seen this season (none of them are promotion candidates, being all "more mature" colleagues and with no intention to go further), if I had been observing them, they would have all been "below standard" at best, in one or two cases "well below standard".

So how the hell do they get appointed to these games? Nowhere more than then youth game is the corruption of club marks more apparent.....and because it "doesn't matter" no one bothers to quality check it.

I would rather these semi's and final's are given to promotion seeking candidates who have demonstrated good standards then just given to the best scoring ref's on the youth leagues......who are often scored highly because they failed to issue cards when required, failed to dismiss for the blatant DOGSO, or in some cases, have issued cards, but then told the players/coaches not to worry because they wouldn't put them in.

This is what is wrong with refereeing at the moment.....and this is what is causing the rise of poor player behaviour....because they come through the youth leagues expecting referees not to enforce the LOTG......and the CFA's and leagues perpetuate it by appointing these slackers to their youth finals because teams consistently score them highly for not doing their jobs!
 
The Referee Store
Being friendly and popular and not doing the job properly Padders.

Want to know what frustrates me? Is when you get referees who do the majority of their refereeing in senior leagues but then get appointed to the junior finals. I would like to see those that referee at a set standard be allowed to referee the important games for that appropriate standard. So, if you have a ref who has officiated 30 games in a junior league, and a ref who has done 20 for a senior league and 10 in the junior league, it's my opinion that the guy who has done more junior games should be appointed to that junior final (or semi). I was lucky last season to officiate one league final and line on 4, but then some of my colleagues were a little frustrated because they got nothing, which I can fully understand.
 
@Padfoot - there seems to be little justice sometimes. Promotion candidates tend to get the more senior finals, and working on the principal that no referee gets two final, means they need other bodies. working on the principal that they don't get the same final twice, also restricts the available officials.

The referees you are referring to tend to be more available during the gear so get rewarded.

Yes, it is a fact. The best referees don't get the finals they deserve!
 
Club Marks do get tainted by KMDs against teams. However if everyone did 25 games on the same league then I'd expect that the average would reflect your relevant ability at that level.

Most teams don't like cards, but if you give them consistently to both sides then there's a respect there that you did it. I'd actually say that those who referee properly with cards at Sunday League level probably get better marks.
 
Darius said:
Club Marks do get tainted by KMDs against teams. However if everyone did 25 games on the same league then I'd expect that the average would reflect your relevant ability at that level.

Most teams don't like cards, but if you give them consistently to both sides then there's a respect there that you did it. I'd actually say that those who referee properly with cards at Sunday League level probably get better marks.
Click to expand...

Completely agree, league RefsSecs tend to get more complaints about referees who are reluctant to use cards than those who use them a lot. Usually because a physical team has been able to kick a more talented team off the pitch and got away with it.

County Cup appointment officers don't have a lot to go on. When you get to semi-finals and finals referees will have officiated at most three earlier games typically, so all they have for them is 6 marks. Unless they are promotion candidates there won't have been any observations, and they will only get marks from leagues at the end of the season, not during it. So you could easily have a situation where a referee is very poor in his league, but had two or three very easy county cup games where he had nothing to do and got marked 90 from all of the teams. They aren't likely to have seen most if not all of the officials referee, so I'm not really sure what else they can do other than go on those club marks from earlier rounds.

It's an age old debate in terms of the benefits and pitfalls of club marks. As I've said before though, there are no other viable options at this time. There are barely enough observers to see promotion candidates the required amount of times. Also CFAs have had massive reductions in funding from the FA, so have had to cut back on initiatives (and staff in many cases) to save money. So I can't see any of them being willing to start observing non promotion candidates due to the cost involved in terms of the observer fees and expenses.
 
I've always wondered how they make a decision. When I started I did a lot of youth league games to build up the experience/confidence and was appointed as an assistant in a county cup final. The referee told me when we arrived at the ground that he was surprised to get the appointment as he had never refereed a youth game before and assumed he got it purely because he was local to the stadium being used.
 
My understanding several things are taken to account. Firstly registering in may is the first. Secondly club marks. I mean I have a veterans final on the line and u16 girls semi final. With both semi finalists from games I have refereed previously. I have refereed on 3 ladies/girls leagues.

also I think my county appointment based on what football you sign up for at the start of the.season. so I know for a fact ladies/girls football struggle for referees most weeks so. Therefore giving a better chance for the referees that do referee on that league.
 
I got appointed to 2 county games last season. Both youth games. Now I haven't refereed any youth leagues for 15 years so was a bit surprised to say the least to be appointed to them. I of course accepted them and refereed them both. Couldn't help thinking that there must have been someone who regularly refereed these leagues more deserving than me to get appointed to these games. I did ask the question but got no reply.
 
It cuts both ways, I was given a senior county cup line between two contrib teams- there would have been more than enough L3 & 4's to cover this midweek fixture.

I think the appointments to these fixtures also includes your availability, admin accuracy and attendance at seminars/training events. Clubs will also write into CFAs with comments on top of the usual marking. The other important aspect is a referees willingness to embrace the opinions and observations of assessors/observers.
 
As these County Cup appointments are made across the country by numerous appointments staff, then there is surely lots of different criteria used?
 
Of
PinnerPaul said:
As these County Cup appointments are made across the country by numerous appointments staff, then there is surely lots of different criteria used?
Click to expand...
Of course, as with most things in football, no two counties will do things exactly the same :)

However, from what I've observed, they do indeed take into account availability, flexibility, prioritising promotion candidates and those receiving good marks in County Cup games.

I reckon it's a great system ... my thinking completely unswayed by three final appointments in the last four years ;)
 
Russell Jones said:
Of

Of course, as with most things in football, no two counties will do things exactly the same :)

However, from what I've observed, they do indeed take into account availability, flexibility, prioritising promotion candidates and those receiving good marks in County Cup games.

I reckon it's a great system ... my thinking completely unswayed by three final appointments in the last four years ;)
Click to expand...

and no complaints from me either Russell, fact I have just been given a final this year has nothing whatsoever to do with it!:)
 
down in Essex County Cup finals are appointed via a 'nomination' process - so basically board members, high up observers, Society Committee members etc all have a say so in who gets appointed for a final.

from there is it looked at on firstly, if you opt when registering that season to referee all football or just youth/OA, then from there is is pretty much the lower down finals of said age groups are given to less experienced/levelled officials and the likes of our BBC Essex Senior Cup (which is the big tasty one everyone wants) is given to our countys level 2b/3's etc. as they are at the level to deal with the event.

from the sounds of it, Essex are the best for arranging finals
 
Following on from this, I have to attend a Cup Finals Officials evening next Friday. You get some food, a chance to meet your fellow officials, us 4th officials get a chance to play with the electronic numbers board and this year we're getting our photos taken for the match day programme.

Any other counties do anything similar?
 
PinnerPaul said:
Following on from this, I have to attend a Cup Finals Officials evening next Friday. You get some food, a chance to meet your fellow officials, us 4th officials get a chance to play with the electronic numbers board and this year we're getting our photos taken for the match day programme.

Any other counties do anything similar?
Click to expand...

Yes we had the same minus the playing with the electronic board bit. It comes down to what is available at the facility on the day. so 4th officials have been advised to ensure that they familiarise themselves on the day with the equipment they get. Best of luck for the final matey then
 
Cheers

Last time I did a final, about 5 years ago, there was only 1 board Middlesex owned, so not guaranteed for it to to be there on my game anyway - I'm not bothered either way - one less thing to worry about!:p
 
I've been nominated for a cup final this season, we have a seminar on Monday which is when we find out which of the 20 finals we get and in what capacity, from the email received each match gets an observer as well, is this common practice?

I'm in two minds about whether I should shave my beard off or not at the moment.

I like to think I got selected on merit...
 
@zarathustra @PinnerPaul - congrats to you both ... I have already my evening which sounded very similar (although same as @zarathustra we didn't find out until the evening what game or capacity) great evenings, we had Anthony Taylor planned to do a speech, but he was given the Tottenham/Wes Brom early kick off on the Saturday, so a Friday PM presentation wasn't in his best interests! we had the National Referee Development Manager instead come down! great stuff!!

have either of you had an email regarding jacket/clothes sizes? Essex CFA are providing a nice Nike warm up jacket for all officials, that'll be hanging nicely in our changing room on the day!

We held a 'Cup Final' related evening out our society last night were we went through all things to think of before the final - everything from doing a bit of history check on the 2 teams, how their seasons have gone etc. to your appearance on arrival, what to wear, when warming up (socks up/socks down, shirt tucked in/untucked etc.) all the way through to going over basic AR signals, and situations and the 4th Official role! (we even had Dagenham Redbridge FC very kindly donate their electronic board to us for the evening)

In Essex, found this out last night, the electronic board is only permitted for use in the 4 main finals - so Essex Senior Cup, Essex Womens Cup (both sponsored by BBC Essex this year), the Saturday Premier Trophy and the Sunday Premier Trophy.
 
I've not heard any thing about jacket sizes etc, or much about what will happen at the seminar, other than a buffet before it starts and finding out what matches were doing etc.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top